On the Podcast: Rest Rebels: Choosing Rest in a World That Prioritizes Hyper-Productivity
episode summary
In this episode of Out of Session with Kindman and Co., therapists Dani, Kaitlin and Care Coordinator Clarissa, share their personal experiences and struggles with exhaustion, fatigue, and tiredness. They cover how different factors like lack of sleep, chronic illness, balancing work and personal life, and the emotional toll of their profession contribute to their fatigue. They also explore the concepts of compassion fatigue, guilt, and shame, while reflecting on societal and cultural narratives around rest and productivity. The therapists underscore the importance of intentional rest as a form of resistance against the pressures of hyper-productivity and capitalist culture, and advocate for self-care despite feelings of guilt or inadequacy.
Hosts Introduce Themselves
[00:00:48] Dani: Morning everybody. My name is Dani. I'm a therapist here at Kindman and Co. And my pronouns are she her.
[00:00:54] Dani: Uh, today we're gonna be talking about tiredness and I would say, I'm feeling, honestly, I'm kind of at a five.
[00:01:04] Kaitlin: On the tiredness scale.
[00:01:06] Dani: Hmm.
[00:01:07] Kaitlin: Or just the general life scale.
[00:01:10] Dani: General life might be a little bit lower, but, uh, tiredness. I, I would say, yeah, like, I'm like somewhat tired. If, if 10 is exhausted, I'm in the middle. Didn't get great sleep, haven't gone great sleep, but feel energized by this, I guess.
[00:01:29] Clarissa: Feel energized about our how tired are you? Posca podcast?
[00:01:34] Dani: I am. I like you all.
[00:01:36] Clarissa: I like that. Yeah.
My name is Clarissa. My pronouns are she and her and I am the Care Coordinator, uh, for Kindman and Company.
And I am, I'm about like a 6.57 on the tired scale today. Late night, I've got a five month old, it's about to be six month old, and we're still adjusting me and my partner to scheduling, getting back into the groove of full-time work and, also care for myself. See how that came last. Um, but there I am.
[00:02:20] Kaitlin: Hi, I'm Kaitlin. I use she her pronouns and I'm also tired. I feel like I, I don't know. I'm thinking about the scale and my mind is kind of just going blank, which I think it's an indicator that I'm too tired to scale, whatever that means.
Impact of Chronic Illness on Fatigue
[00:02:52] Kaitlin: Um, but I feel like, like the flavor of tiredness that I'm working with today is both a combination of just not enough sleep.
We're integrating our kitten with the other cats at nighttime. So that's been disruptive, but she's very cute. And, um, and then just the, like, I don't know, 10 outta 10 fatigue that I carry in my body every day as someone who is managing chronic illness. So like the combo of lack of sleep plus ongoing all time fatigue is, uh, too tired to scale.
And like the irony that we're doing this in the morning, you know?
[00:03:34] Dani: I know. I, I think also that's why I am like, I'm sort of in a groove right now 'cause it feels like afternoon. I got up at 5:30. Long story. Uh, but I got up at 5:30, so I'm sort of grooving. But I anticipate a crash. It's, it's gonna happen.
Um, I think it is interesting how, when I think of tiredness and hearing your intros, we're talking both about the way that sleep impacts it plus, um, outside life stuff. But I think specifically for you, Kaitlin like you're always tired or fatigued.
[00:04:16] Kaitlin: And that's, that's part of my check-in every time I check in.
Here Post Malone. Always tired. Yeah.
[00:04:26] Dani: Yeah. Um, and that's more due to like chronic illness?
[00:04:31] Kaitlin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's a combination of fatigue from symptoms of chronic illness and just the burnout of living with chronic illness, plus medications that are sedating. So, well also coming to, so holding all of those pieces.
[00:04:51] Clarissa: Yeah. Coming to mind is like being a therapist. Yeah. And like the space of everyone else's, you know, sessions and conversations and, yeah.
[00:05:02] Dani: Kaitlin and I both took a deep breath at the same time. We like, we're like, Uhhuh. Uhhuh. Yes.
[00:05:10] Kaitlin: It's resonating. Thanks, Clarissa. The, the non therapist remembering to bring that up.
Well, I think that's one of the things that we were, um, talking, wanting to talk about today. Yeah. Right. It was like, like what is the exhaustion that we're all feeling in life right now? Like, I feel like our clients talk about feeling so tired, so burnt out.
Compassion Fatigue in Therapy
[00:05:34] Kaitlin: We talk about it as a team all the time, and certainly like working as a therapist like one of the things I think that we were thinking about was compassion fatigue. And how holding space for others, especially others who are processing often, like deep traumatic really profound suffering, is in and of itself really fatiguing and like, um, takes a lot of emotional energy.
And when we're talking about our baselines at five seven off the scale. Right then it's a lot to try to kind of tap into some energy reserve that I'm not sure actually exists, to hold that kind of space for people. And, um, not to mention the added layer that a lot of what people are processing is what's going on in the world and the like, political health scapes that we're living in and um, that we're feeling that too personally.
Like the wave of that. Oof. I know.
[00:06:43] Clarissa: Ding, ding, ding.
[00:06:44] Kaitlin: Yeah. Exhaustion increase immediately.
Personal Experiences with Exhaustion
[00:06:49] Dani: I, it reminds me what you're talking about reminds me of when I go home after work and I am at a higher level of tiredness and exhaustion and I've had a, like, decent client day. I, yeah, it's interesting.
I'll like come home and I check in with my partner and I can tell when I'm really tired, when I just don't want to talk. And I'll sort of let her know, you know, I'm, I'm open to listening and I'm happy to, um, sort of almost like be a presence and be with you. But I don't feel like talking, it's almost like I have spent all of my energy internally, and I just don't have any anymore.
And it's not even like sleep makes it that kind of tiredness better. I need to just stop talking, stop talking, stop listening. I need to do something enriching. I need to eat dinner or I don't know, have some tea, but sometimes I just need silence. And even if I did lay down and go to sleep, I can't go to sleep.
There's too much, I don't know, residue.
[00:08:00] Kaitlin: Yeah, I mean, I, I deeply resonate with what you're talking about. I feel like it's like, like I think this year, 2025 in LA has, and being a therapist has felt a lot like 2020 and being a therapist in terms of like, everyone's going through the same shit simultaneously and it's just like hard to person right now.
Um, and. Uh, holding space for all of that on top of feeling it ourselves has left me like, by the time I get home, I'm like, uh, Netflix on repeat and like, I don't have space too. Like there's like friends that I have in other places that I'd love to connect with, but the idea of like a phone call is just thinking about it feels like it takes energy, let alone doing it.
And that's like something I actually want to do. You know, like I want to connect with those people and I feel sad about feeling so depleted, um, but just not having the capacity at the end of the day for really anything that like, takes emotional energy, like nothing, not, not, not a,
[00:09:20] Dani: I love that you're saying that, and then I'll get a teams from you at like 10.
[00:09:24] Kaitlin: But is it like, please tell me about how hard your life is right now?
[00:09:28] Dani: No, no. It's, it's a hey reminder or just want to touch base, you know, it's very logistical. But I don't even have, I don't have.
[00:09:39] Kaitlin: Mm-hmm. That is okay. We've talked about this. That's like my ADHD brain. That's like we don't work from the hours of like 3:00 PM to seven and then weirdly get a second wind. Like now we're back.
[00:09:54] Dani: I love that for you.
[00:09:56] Kaitlin: And guess what? It doesn't help with my exhaustion. I wouldn't recommend it.
[00:10:01] Dani: Yeah. If it was your choice, I don't think that you would be working at those hours.
[00:10:05] Kaitlin: Yeah. Um. True.
[00:10:09] Clarissa: I feel that, I feel that scenario, Kaitlin of like wanting to connect with friendship literally just happened to me last night and she's one of my best friends and she gave me a call and you know, I have the baby, I'm also working.
And, um, just being mindful of like what, where I'm at in my day. And you know, I know it's her day off, so I'm like, okay, this is like one of the times that she has available. And when I saw her name, I'm just like, I don't have the time. I don't have the energy, but we're missing each other so much because of just life.
Um, but it really, it really does, like mentally I react and I'm like, oh, I can't give what I also am needing, which is friendship connection and like that restores me in some ways too. Um, so definitely feel that that guilt. For sure.
[00:11:04] Kaitlin: Mm. Guilt. Which doesn't contribute to more exhaustion at all.
[00:11:09] Dani: No.
[00:11:10] Kaitlin: Right.
[00:11:10] Dani: Not, not at all.
[00:11:11] Kaitlin: Nor does shame. Mm-hmm.
[00:11:13] Dani: Yeah. No, those actually help. They're helpful. Yeah. They're like really resourcing relief. Restoring
[00:11:22] Kaitlin: I, I can tell that you are pretty tired though.
[00:11:25] Clarissa: Yeah, I'm sure. I look it.
[00:11:28] Kaitlin: It's not really about, looks sort of just on an emotional, sort of like, soul level.
[00:11:35] Clarissa: Yes.
[00:11:36] Kaitlin: Um, last week you had a hard day.
[00:11:39] Clarissa: I did.
[00:11:40] Kaitlin: And. I was there. Um, Clarissa is leaning back just like shaking.
[00:11:47] Clarissa: I'm also really grateful that you and Paul were there. 'cause I don't know how I would've felt if like nobody was there. I feel I probably would've felt worse, so. Yeah.
[00:11:57] Kaitlin: Yeah. But just seeing you in that place, and I remember you saying like, it's not really the thing that just happened.
It is that I'm so tired and the way that you said that, I just. I, it felt like that soul tired. I just need rest.
[00:12:12] Clarissa: Yeah. The holidays coming off of the holidays, which like, in my mind I'm like, okay, time off of work. Like it's going to be restful, like absolutely not. Um, and again, transitioning back into full-time work and.
You know, that's a huge piece of the mind. I was definitely like depleted. For sure. And that, like you said, that wasn't even about what had happened. Um, it just tipped my cup over. It was like that cat that just like,
[00:12:47] Kaitlin: oh, I have like really cats.
[00:12:51] Dani: Actual cats, but also cats in your mind.
[00:12:53] Kaitlin: Yeah metaphorical cats. Yeah.
[00:12:56] Clarissa: Yeah. I was really exhausted.
[00:13:01] Kaitlin: I think what you're saying. I mean, firstly just, ugh. Like I really felt my heart get heavy as you were talking about that. But that word depleted, like really, I feel like just hung out there for me when you said it. I was thinking, I looked up the definition of compassion fatigue last night 'cause it's one of those things where it's like, I know what it is in my lived experience, but like actually to define it, I, I struggle with, and one of the things that I came across talked about like that kind of teetering on burnout and lack of empathy from really just being so under-resourced and like the inability to self-renew.
And I, I think that's like such an important piece of why being human feels so exhausting in this moment. Like a lot of what we're talking about is I come home at the end of the day and I have nothing left. But I'm also so depleted that like even trying to do things that nourish me, feel like they take too much energy.
Like, like how do I kind of start getting myself into that? When that still requires like a spark, right? Yeah.
[00:14:19] Dani: Some something to make it, I need to jump.
[00:14:21] Kaitlin: Yeah. Something to make it happen and you know, so I think we're all kind of engaging in a lot more like dissociative numbing things. Just like scrolling, like I was saying, like watching tv.
Like things that just kind of tune out and turn off more than really being able to engage in things that renew us and move us out of a fully depleted state. And so I feel like we're all just like kind of like eking by on like some scale of very depleted to somewhat depleted and it's like hard to get out of that place.
[00:15:04] Dani: Yeah. And that reminds me of the guilt, right? 'Cause I think thinking of you Clarissa wanting to talk to your friend, you're like, I want, I want to renew, I want this energy. I think that I could get it from this friend, but I'm working with fumes here. I can't even pick up this phone right now.
Um, but then you feel bad. Or I feel bad. And I think that is. Sort of persists through the numbness. I feel guilt. And shame like I wish
[00:15:35] Kaitlin: Somehow Now you can't numb those ones out. Yeah.
[00:15:37] Dani: Yeah. The tiredness does not take those away.
[00:15:40] Kaitlin: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Interesting. So I'm Seems unfair.
[00:15:45] Dani: Yeah. I'm just tired with like nagging guilt.
[00:15:54] Kaitlin: What, why is that?
[00:15:56] Dani: Why do I have nagging guilt?
[00:15:57] Kaitlin: No, not you. Oh, like, I, like, I think that that's a very common experience. Like why is it that guilt and shame persist? Like I'm thinking, I know we were talking kind of offline before this about our culture of hyper productivity and, um, living under capitalism and all of the inherited stories that we have both of like intergenerational trauma and, uh, like what was modeled for you.
[00:16:28] Dani: Definitely.
[00:16:28] Kaitlin: Right. And so like the, the sense that like, I want to do this, I wanna connect with this person, like I care about them, that would be good for me too. I also wanna show up for them and, and I just can't.
It is like having to reckon with our limited capacity, which we're not really supposed to have.
[00:16:50] Dani: Right. Right.
[00:16:51] Kaitlin: I don't know. That's my hypothesis. What do you think?
[00:16:54] Dani: I agree.
Cultural Narratives Around Tiredness
[00:16:56] Dani: I, to me, I go to family upbringing, uh, whether it's my own personal stuff or I'm talking with somebody else, I'm just like, well, how did your family talk about tiredness?
[00:17:04] Kaitlin: Not.
Mm-hmm.
Not.
[00:17:06] Dani: They didn't.
[00:17:07] Kaitlin: Talk about tiredness. Mm-hmm. Wow. But do you, your family's talked about being tired, like it's like a phenomenon.
[00:17:16] Clarissa: My family was like, I'm so tired and I'm gonna keep going. Yeah. Like, um, almost like this badge of like, I wear my tiredness and I'm so badass 'cause I'm gonna keep going.
[00:17:31] Kaitlin: Yeah.
[00:17:32] Dani: Or what are you tired from? Oh, but I did bababababa. That is. Mm-hmm.
[00:17:38] Kaitlin: Right. Like it's not justified. There's something really, and to know about that. Yeah.
[00:17:43] Clarissa: And therefore guilt and shame. Um, yeah. So I think like, uh, my, my dad like regularly says, you know, I never come home and just sit on the couch.
Always gotta do something. And I'm like, man, I would, I would love to come home and sit on the couch. And now that I live in my own home where I can make my own rules, I come home and I sit on the couch. And I don't feel as bad anymore as bad.
[00:18:14] Kaitlin: But the, like, I, when I come home, I don't sit on the couch was a point of pride.
[00:18:17] Clarissa: Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:18:19] Dani: Just keep going. I think, narratives about, uh, specifically I'm Mexican, so being Mexican, being raised Mexican culturally. There is something associated with, um, Mexicans and hard work and labor. Yeah. Um, and if you're not hardworking and you're not sweaty and tired and sort of so exhausted that when your head hits the pillow, you're asleep.
You are lazy. So I think those were like social narratives about needing to be tired to prove that you are a good Mexican.
[00:18:54] Clarissa: Mm-hmm. I totally agree. And also, um. Sacrificing, like sacrificing yourself for your family, sacrificing your life, or, um, just getting ahead in life, putting yourself in a better position so you can put your family in a better position.
Yeah. Um. And I think that's definitely like main tether to why I'm in my, um, mid thirties and I'm just realizing how to take care of myself and like connecting with like, oh my God, I am depleted. What do I need? Yeah. Um, the sacrifice is a big thing. Mm-hmm.
[00:19:36] Dani: Kaitlin, your family didn't talk about tiredness?
[00:19:38] Kaitlin: I'm trying to think about that. I mean, I think. On one hand maybe. Yes. And the other hand no. Like I don't really remember a lot of like conversation regularly about how tired we are. But I think, I mean, my dad was very overworking and like, I don't even know when he slept. Like he was working very late hours and then very early morning hours.
And then my mom also had a lot of chronic illness and so I think there was a lot of like, I have a migraine, I have a, this, I don't, you know, like, I'm sure tiredness was kind of worked into that, but it was more like, what, what I think of is in like Jewishness as like fetching like, like, uh, like, oh, we're commiserating.
Kind of like my blah blah, blah hurts. And, you know, I like, I'm tired of it. Just kind of like. Getting through, but I don't, I don't know that it was like a point of pride to talk about being tired and just pushing through it, but it was just like a fact of life.
[00:20:51] Dani: You would join in on like Yeah. Oh, my hurts.
[00:20:53] Kaitlin: Yeah.
[00:20:53] Dani: Oh, me too. Yeah.
[00:20:54] Kaitlin: Oh. Uh, to be in a body, to be a human. Wait, you know, which is like, not unlike what it feels like now, to be honest, to be a human, to be in a body. Um, yeah. But I don't know that it was really modeled, just like talking about like, God, I'm so exhausted. And like really like creating kind of a pause to allow that to be, you know, to feel that.
And, um, I feel like I don't know that I ever really heard those things. Hmm.
[00:21:37] Dani: I find that very interesting.
[00:21:39] Kaitlin: Hmm. I don't know, I just, um. Because I talk so much about it now, it's like, yes. Yeah.
[00:21:47] Clarissa: You're like, like at what point were you starting to express this?
[00:21:50] Dani: You're very like pro tired. You're like, oh yeah.
[00:21:53] Kaitlin: You're tired?
You should take care of yourself. Yeah, do it.
[00:21:59] Dani: But you're like pretty, I like watch you take care of yourself really well, and I think you're like really good at trying. I trying. I say trying because I think with fatigue, no matter how much rest or trying you do, your body is just fatigued. Yeah. Like that to me is different than tiredness.
So I think that I see you trying to restore, or like you said, renew. And I think sometimes it seems like it's working, but, um, I don't know. Yeah. I see you try a lot.
[00:22:30] Kaitlin: Hmm. Thanks. I mean, I'm just remembering like, I don't know, it was 10 minutes ago when you were like, you're messaging me at 10:00 PM but yes, I, I, I appreciate.
[00:22:42] Dani: But that's you working with your own brain.
[00:22:44] Kaitlin: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Trying to work with it instead of against it. Yeah. But yeah, I, I do think, um, I mean, I think it took me a long time to, to get to that place of recognizing the need to rest, recognizing the need to like listen to my body's capacity and its alarm bells that like you can't just push through.
You can't just keep going. Again, with what we were saying before, like that's not the messaging that we get in society, that is not the like common expectations, right. That we're held to.
Rest as Resistance
[00:23:23] Kaitlin: But I think I've come to a place where I really think of intentional rest as resistance. Against that. Like, and I talk about it with clients too, that like, when we make the choice to come home, put our stuff down and intentionally choose to sit on the couch.
Right. Instead of like, talk about how tired we are and just keep moving. Um, that, that's activism. It's pushing against all of these like, dominant narratives and like the cultural tide of needing to be overly productive and always on, always available.
[00:24:03] Dani: The external pressure, expectation. Keep doing, keep producing, keep everything.
[00:24:12] Kaitlin: Yeah.
[00:24:13] Clarissa: I like the idea that it's resistance because it does. I mean, if it felt natural, like we wouldn't be here, but like the resistance just shows like it is hard to, to do that, to connect with that about yourself. About needing rest and like, identifying that and also, uh, the, the, the narrative. The narrative of shame and guilt and like, what comes up when you're like, okay, now I'm gonna sit on the couch. So I like resistance. That's what came to mind. Rebellion.
[00:24:47] Dani: Yeah. Rebellion. And the image is just you.
[00:24:52] Kaitlin: Sitting and taking a nap, maybe I should just get a a, a rest like shirt and it's just gonna say Rebel on it and then I'll wear it. Rest Rebel. Rest Rebel. Like I like it.
Merch ideas for 2026 and it's just gonna be me laying down.
But I think like, I think it's really true. That it is activism and I mean, one of the things I think that comes up in conversations I mean, and when we talk as like Spoony, but also in conversations with clients is rest isn't restorative. If you are sitting in shame spirals or like pools of guilt the whole time.
Right? And then, and then that keeps you on the cycle. 'cause people were like, well, I tried to rest last week and it didn't make me feel any better. I didn't feel any more replenished. And it's like, it's not going to, if you're beating yourself up the whole time, you're, you're choosing to do it. In fact, it will probably make you feel more depleted.
Right. And so like thinking of rest as resistance or activism is also like, kind of requires putting the self-judgment to the side and saying like, I really deserve this. Like choosing to do this is going against capitalism and hyper productivity and those values are harming me and harm everyone, even though we all have to live with them and like to actually resist and, and to nourish myself.
I need to give myself the space to choose a rest, and have that be a good thing, not a bad thing.
[00:26:39] Dani: And do it over and over and over again.
[00:26:42] Clarissa: That part. Yeah.
[00:26:44] Dani: Because we rest and then we keep doing. Right. But then that means you need more rest and then you'll keep doing. Mm-hmm. Or you don't, but I, I do hear your voice in my head, Kaitlin, often to just allow myself to rest, allow myself to do work in an hour, maybe that'll be an inconvenient time.
But who cares or To book the massage to. Not answer the phone. Yeah. Um, I'm also really enjoying, I've been having my eyes on Weezie the whole time. Weezie is, uh, the Kindman's dog, just a precious angel and, no shame, just been asleep the whole time. Walked, moved to a different spot. Back asleep.
She's getting it.
[00:27:39] Kaitlin: Yeah, she's getting that rest.
[00:27:40] Dani: That's a rest rebel bed. So she's a rest rebel.
Conclusion and Final Thoughts
[00:27:43] Kaitlin: Yeah, I was just thinking, I mean, maybe to, um, wrap us up because ironically you have to literally dart out of here into something else. I do. Um, but to. That she literally comes to work every day and naps the entire time she's here and like, what a rest rebel, right?
Come into the office just to take a six to eight hour nap. May we all get rest, rebels, may we all be like, Weezie.
Today's episode is bringing you to a couple different places! First, Weezie, who is the ultimate ‘rest rebel’, is bringing you to MaeDay Rescue. Founded by Natalie Garcia, MaeDay Rescue is 501C3 nonprofit, and started as a one-woman mission to help abandoned dogs. Since then it has grown into a full-scale rescue effort built on collaboration, education and heart. You can view their website at maedayrescue.com.
Weezie would also like you to check out Kitten Rescue Los Angeles. Kitten Rescue is a non-profit, volunteer based organization devoted to finding loving homes for unwanted, homeless cats and kittens in LA. They educate the public about responsible pet guardianship, how to care for kittens and cats, and the importance of spaying and neutering. Kitten Rescue makes educational material available via events, print, school presentations and on their website at kittenrescue.org.
We would also like to bring you to The Nap Ministry. Founded by Tricia Hersey, The Nap Ministry is a community installation that examines the liberating power of naps. They believe rest is a form of resistance and install Collective Napping Experiences for the community to rest together in a safe space. Follow them on Instagram at The Nap Ministry. instagram.com/thenapministry.
Be sure to check out our blog at Kindman & Co. blog - Paul Kindman has a post on Rest, Its Many Facets and the Consequences of Rest Neglect. You can also find the full transcript of this episode there as well. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you next time.
Featured therapist author:
I am here to help you celebrate all the parts of yourself and begin to live the fully authentic, emboldened life that you desire. I live at the intersection of queer and Mexican and have felt that fully embracing one identity means grappling with the other. From feeling shame about my curly hair, to fearing the expression of my androgynous presentation, I have come to value and embrace these revered parts of myself. I truly get the complexities of navigating intersecting identities and want to help you feel empowered to also live your truth.
I co-founded Kindman & Co. to be a different kind of therapy practice. We center relationships and celebrate human messiness, but we also focus on making the world a more inclusive and just place. My purpose is to help our clients come to believe that you are not alone, you belong, AND you inspire—you have the power to bring about change. I work with my clients to feel more connected, so that they take actions that improve their relationships and the world.
Clarissa Santisteban, Care Coordinator
Intake Coordinator ⎪ Head Question Answerer ⎪ Lead Biller ⎪ Therapy Matchmaker Extraordinaire ⎪ Dog Parent ⎪ Aerial Arts Practitioner ⎪ Lover of Paranormal Movies
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