On the Podcast: Workplace Burnout and Mental Health: Why It’s a System Problem, Not a Personal Failure
episode summary
In this episode of Out of Session with Kindman and Co., therapists Liam and Sarah, discuss the topic of burnout, emphasizing that it is a systemic issue rather than a personal failing. Sarah shares her experiences of burnout from working at Kaiser Permanente, highlighting the lack of support and overwhelming workload. They discuss the importance of community and connections at the workplace, the unrealistic expectations set by corporations, and how systemic problems contribute to individual stress. They conclude by recommending listeners to focus on building supportive relationships and reevaluating personal and professional values to mitigate burnout.
[00:00:00] Liam: This is Liam.
[00:00:02] Sarah: And this is Sarah. You're here on Out of Session and today.
Discussing Burnout
[00:00:11] Liam: Today we're gonna talk about burnout.
[00:00:13] Sarah: Burnout is a system problem, not a you problem.
[00:00:16] Liam: Yeah, totally. Yeah. Oh, I did my thanks for having me in the other take. So now I'll have to go to something else. How about, how are you, how are you doing?
[00:00:26] Sarah: No, that definitely works. No, I'm doing, I'm doing well. Um, 20 26 different year. Um, don't know that so much has changed, but I'm glad to be back here. Getting used to the prospect of being on a podcast, it doesn't feel as scary as it did before.
[00:00:50] Liam: Oh.
[00:00:51] Sarah: Is it, does that not feel like the case for you?
[00:00:53] Liam: No, I just hadn't realized that.
Yeah, no, you're right. I, I am, I feel like I'm in my element right now.
[00:01:00] Sarah: Oh, yeah. I mean, you kinda look at, for those that, that can't see Liam, he's got his notes ready, got the, the headset on. It seems like he's pretty locked in.
[00:01:09] Liam: I, uh, I'm so locked in. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. Uh, thank you. Yeah, no, that's a good image of me in my element.
[00:01:19] Sarah: Mm-hmm.
[00:01:20] Liam: I think, um, yeah, it's so interesting. I don't know. It's not interesting. See, I'm outta my element 'cause I mentioned it.
Personal Experiences with Burnout
[00:01:29] Liam: Uh, I think today's topic though, we were kind of talking about for you, it's something you have a lot of experience with.
[00:01:38] Sarah: Yes.
For those that do not know, or I used to work at Kaiser Permanente before I came to work here at Kindman and Co.
Um, very, very, very big shift, um, in terms of workload and what was expected of me. Um, and also just how I was treated as a person. Um, or maybe. The lack thereof being treated like a person. Mm-hmm. I think all of that definitely contributed to feeling pretty shitty, uh, after a while.
[00:02:12] Liam: Yeah. It was a, it was a lot of things.
[00:02:14] Sarah: Yeah.
[00:02:14] Liam: Most importantly it wasn't just you.
[00:02:18] Sarah: Yes. And I, I just really feel for people that feel like it is. I, because I did, um, for many months at the beginning, I really felt like I couldn't understand why I was having such a hard time with this. When it seemed like many people were just kind of going to work and leaving and not really having anything to say about it.
Um, I realized later that part of that was I didn't really have relationships with anyone at work, which I think was purposeful, at least at the beginning, um, because everyone was so drained and exhausted and there wasn't so much time to, to make those connections.
[00:03:04] Liam: Yeah. Was it all remote?
[00:03:05] Sarah: No.
[00:03:06] Liam: Okay.
[00:03:06] Sarah: Um, I would go in in person, but, um, I think there were just, I think I, I had mentioned to you before, I was seeing like six to eight clients a day.
[00:03:16] Liam: Yeah.
[00:03:17] Sarah: Um, was seeing them typically once every two weeks or so. We didn't have a time set every week. It kind of changed week to week.
[00:03:29] Liam: Oh wow.
[00:03:30] Sarah: Um, so yeah, it was just like. It was a lot of stories to hold and not a lot of continuity. And yeah, it just very overwhelming, especially as a new therapist. Um, yeah.
[00:03:47] Liam: That was your first like gig after graduating?
[00:03:50] Sarah: Yeah.
[00:03:51] Liam: Yeah. Oh, wow.
[00:03:52] Sarah: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:53] Liam: Yeah. I mean, then there's not much of a, of a like, you sort of like, you really have to kind of develop that barometer for what's my tolerance and like what's sustainable, but also is this what every job's gonna look like?
[00:04:08] Sarah: Yeah.
[00:04:08] Liam: Which I imagine is pretty despair inducing.
[00:04:12] Sarah: Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I really have a soft spot for people that are starting to wonder this because, uh. I think, I mean, you'd ask the question like, is it, is it me? Um, and I think so many people in so many industries find themselves wondering that.
[00:04:30] Liam: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:30] Sarah: Um, am I not, especially for people that are just getting out of grad school, but for anyone entering a new job, you know, there's, it's a completely different culture, a completely different cast of characters.
So if you are a person that you know, might be a little more nervous about entering the space there's so many questions about whether you're doing it right, whether you have what it takes, and when you don't really have a barometer, like you said, uh, you're just kind of looking to the people around you, but you don't really have good rapport, real relationships with them.
[00:05:08] Liam: Right?
[00:05:09] Sarah: It's just so easy to kind of point the finger at yourself.
[00:05:14] Liam: Yeah, that's, I mean, it's incredibly isolating, I imagine. I mean, a big part too, of, I mean, just hearing you describe it, is reminding me kind of, well, I guess sort of defining burnout just generally, you know, like a state of, uh, mental, physical, like chronic fatigue. Where it's just, it's every, it's in every, you're just not even going to sleep one night and waking up the next day. You are like in a deficit essentially. Um, and so tolerance for everything is just so much lower. But a big common theme I keep, I kept reading, I guess in whatever cursory Googles I did on the definition were like,
[00:05:57] Sarah: good, good research.
[00:05:58] Liam: Yeah. There was a cynicism. Component that I think you're kind of speaking to in that sense of, uh, it, it just in the sort of like, it, it extrapolates to like, there's really not much I could do.
[00:06:12] Sarah: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:12] Liam: And it's me. I mean, it's a flattening of that, of something that's really complicated and systemic, brought down to this like very binary, either I've got what it takes or I don't.
[00:06:25] Sarah: Yeah.
[00:06:26] Liam: And maybe I just don't, I don't like that is a, and that's a horrible feeling.
[00:06:31] Sarah: It's a horrible feeling. And it's, it was just, it was so sad. I mean, to, I mean, not everyone gets to choose what they do for work, first off. Um, and not many people even, you know, enter a field in which they're extremely interested or passionate.
Um, I've felt like I had both of those things. And I was just so quickly beaten down because, and I realize now, I mean, it is structural.
Systemic Issues in Workplaces
[00:07:12] Sarah: The, the expectations of the company are not about helping people heal. It's a numbers game. It's about we pay this person X amount of money. We have this amount of people that are looking for services.
How do we make the numbers work? How can we, I mean, what I realized, what it felt like is how can we squeeze as many hours of therapy out of this clinician, as humanly possible?
[00:07:30] Liam: Right?
[00:07:31] Sarah: Um, and it just so goes against the nature of what we are supposed to be doing in a therapy sense. I mean it when, when so much of this is just, showing up and showing up and showing up and not having any time to check in or to, even if anything, you're kind of pushing aside your needs. You're kind of telling yourself, don't think about how you're hungry or tired or need the restroom.
[00:07:59] Liam: Oh yeah.
[00:07:59] Sarah: You just need to push through. It's good for the company.
It works for them if I'm able to kind of clock in and clock out and, and have these and kind of push out these sessions.
[00:08:11] Liam: Yeah. No, I can imagine.
I just think the company thing though is the, like, it's just not, it's the, using the word like squeeze as much as they can out also works for them, I think because, you know, there's kind of a never ending stream of people coming in.
[00:08:32] Sarah: Sure.
[00:08:33] Liam: And they're like, I don't know, I like, I want to get my hours fast. This will gimme a lot.
[00:08:38] Sarah: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:39] Liam: Or, you know, people have so many different reasons. Yeah. You can be like, well, we'll see how long you last, but like, it's not like we're gonna really care.
[00:08:48] Sarah: Yeah.
[00:08:49] Liam: If uh, when we break you.
[00:08:51] Sarah: Yeah.
[00:08:51] Liam: You'll just leave and somebody new and fresh will come in.
[00:08:55] Sarah: And I think that's what they're banking on.
[00:08:57] Liam: Yeah.
[00:08:57] Sarah: And unfortunately, I think a lot of major corporations are banking on that as well, that their bet is it's more cost effective to work people to their breaking point. And then hire someone fresh. Than it is to give people the resources and support that they need to actually do well here. Um, which is pretty heartbreaking and pretty, you know, distressing.
And I mean, I know for me, and I know for the clients that are struggling with this, it's so hard to not take it personally or to not take it home with you. Um, you had said the thing about like sleep and being in a sleep deficit.
[00:09:43] Liam: Yeah.
[00:09:43] Sarah: It really does impact every facet of life. I remember I'd have trouble sleeping.
I'd wake up tired. Definitely have the Sunday scaries of even the idea of having work the next day would make me really anxious.
[00:09:58] Liam: Oh, were you just like Monday to Friday?
[00:10:00] Sarah: Yeah, it was Monday to Friday.
[00:10:01] Liam: And it's, yeah, but oof.
[00:10:04] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, I would feel it would impact my, I mean, you talk to anyone that was in my life at the time, I know it impacted my relationships.
Uh, and you know, it was, people would tell me, you know, you can't take this home with you. You know, you can't let it, like, what's the point of working if not to enjoy your life? And, uh. I think that's part of the, the cynicism that you were talking about. If it's just like, well, what am I supposed to really do?
You know, like if I could just turn it off. Like, it's the same with anxiety, depression, you know, people tell you just don't worry about it or just don't think about it so much. And that's like,
[00:10:45] Liam: right.
[00:10:46] Sarah: I I wouldn't if I could
[00:10:48] Liam: Well, yeah, that's what it, I mean, it's, yeah, no, it's all there. And I think it's, um, that's another, I mean, I guess, the being socialized by all these, all these broader, like on a structural level, that is how society is run in the West and how we do things is like, it's on you. To take care of yourself. Yeah. Um, you know, they, they did all that. Stuff in the whatever in the turn of the century. I don't really actually remember when I was.
[00:11:23] Sarah: Should we get out our history books.
[00:11:24] Liam: Yeah. The specific dates, but just like labor organization and things are like, yep, they did that so that you've got, you know, whatever it is, the eight hours.
[00:11:35] Sarah: Yeah.
[00:11:36] Liam: Or mine as the boss. Right. And then you know, you've got eight and then you can sleep the other eight. And it's like, I mean, again, oof. Um, but.
Yeah. I, I, I feel this like, when they put that on you to basically say like, you just got to learn better. Develop the skill of not taking this home with you. It also just feeds into this one, it feeds into that whole sense of like, I, it's feed know, I don't have enough willpower or I'm not a strong enough agent to do this stuff.
It affirms that you are alone. Like yeah, it's on you and you alone and nobody's gonna help you and the system's not moving and it's you and the system as opposed to like, I don't know. I think the broader reality is it's all part of this dynamic that, if you can get people on their own, even when they do, 'cause I had thought you worked remotely, which was a, obviously a huge thing.
People are isolated then.
[00:12:39] Sarah: Yeah.
[00:12:39] Liam: But even, I mean, to hear that you, you work with people and it's like the relationships with them. I mean, there's just not really time. Yeah. It sounds like, and there's just not like, I don't wanna hang out with you guys outside of here, like this fucking blows.
[00:12:54] Sarah: Yeah. I mean, me being me and being so wanting of connection with people, I would organize stuff.
Oh. So hard to organize every anything 'cause people were so exhausted. Um, but I think there, I mean, it was amazing. It was me and the other associates that would occasionally get together.
[00:13:15] Liam: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:16] Sarah: Um, all of it was just kind of a deep breath of what, what the heck are we doing? Kind of like, how do, how are we even doing this?
How is this sustainable? But it was so, it's so clear in those moments that, even having that, of knowing that like, I, I wasn't the only one crying the first couple of months that, that I was working there. Um, just having the understanding that other people are going through it in those moments is so important.
And I, something that you made me think of was also, um, the. The having to solve things for yourself.
[00:13:57] Liam: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:57] Sarah: That it being so like it's you and you have to fix it.
[00:14:02] Liam: Yeah.
[00:14:02] Sarah: And I think so much pop psychology does that too, right? Of just kind of like all these kind of tricks to make you more productive of getting up at five in the morning and if only you meal prep correctly.
And if only you put your phone away at a certain time. It just kind of puts the owness again on the person rather than on the idea that there are structural issues and that companies are trying to squeeze everything that they can out of the people that work for them.
[00:14:37] Liam: Yeah, no, that, that completely, I completely agree.
It part of sort of like injecting the larger, patterns within capitalism or neoliberalism or things and sort of like putting them in so that you are become a small little capitalism like you become a system that is essentially at the cost of everything, relationships and, and your health and mental wellbeing, and just your enjoyment of life.
You're optimizing your time. And it's just really like, uh, you know, people get on my ass about being somewhat of a nihilist, but it's like that's, uh, there's nothing, not much more nihilistic than reducing life to this thing that needs to be optimized. Yeah, yeah. I say the term is, you know, people think it's a negative thing.
It's not, it's not negative thing.
[00:15:35] Sarah: It's liberating.
[00:15:36] Liam: It's not inherently neg like it's, there's, you know, there's. Positive nihilism and pessimistic nihilism. And I think just, uh but the idea that you've gotta, like your life and the way that we talk about time is the way that we talk about money and these things are just like creating these little machines. That I, I, I don't know. I just think you lose a lot of the humanity, but that's, it makes it even more impressive to me that there was conscious effort on your part. Um, and then again, you know, it makes it sound like it's just you. And it's not to take it away from you, but you know, people have to show up too and want to meet.
And it was tough, uh, but coming together in the way that you did and sort of striving for that connection, I don't know. That's pretty impressive to find that, to try to make that, especially 'cause that's what kind of this place is
[00:16:29] Sarah: Yeah.
[00:16:29] Liam: Built on.
[00:16:30] Sarah: No, definitely. I, I'm grateful I all, many of my great ideas come from my grandma.
Uh, and she was kind of like, she was kind of insinuating that maybe I would have an easier time if I was getting to know people at work. And I described how it just kind of felt impossible.
[00:16:49] Liam: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:49] Sarah: And she was very much like. If it doesn't exist, you can make it exist. Um, for the purposes of this podcast, I, because this is very much a, you know, I made something happen because the system was so fucked up.
Mm-hmm. Um, and like, yes, I, I do think it's important to get to know people. Um, I wish that systems encouraged it. Um, I wish that. I, I just wish that there was more of an understanding that when you nurse relationships and you nurse what people need, that, that's, that's better for everyone. I guess what I should say is that's not necessarily true.
It's not necessarily good for the bottom line. And that's why it doesn't happen.
[00:17:37] Liam: Mm.
[00:17:39] Sarah: Now I work here so you can, I guess the bottom line isn't my, my passion.
[00:17:45] Liam: Yeah. Well, I mean, optimizing your time and, and diversifying your income streams and all this, whatever. Yeah, it, it's, it's just, it's kind of wild, um, in the way that systems also, I.
There's just no, I think a part of holding complexity, which is something that being in a state of burnout takes away from, like, it basically is you just, it's hard to hold gray areas constantly. And you just don't have the energy for that shit when you're miserable and you're exhausted and you're just like, some people just suck.
Yeah, that's the end of it. Some people. Are good. I try to be good, but I suck. And that's just like you have these things and adhering to these, these, the rigidity creates, I think this sense of like, there's tension inside of you because it, there's too much at play. And I think on an intuitive level we understand that.
And so that tension is just leading to more like it's a full-time job in and of itself to maintain, uh. These rigid ideas of like, well, if I just keep my nose even just keep my head down and work and it'll mean something. Or this is the system as it is, or it's just human nature or whatever sort of, you know, bullshit, uh, kind of thing is, uh, has sort of evolved definitely.
And been delivered to us. Um,
[00:19:22] Sarah: yeah.
[00:19:22] Liam: Yeah, I went off on a tangent. There was something you said there little bit. Um,
[00:19:26] Sarah: no ibel. It's, it's all connected. Um
[00:19:29] Liam: mm-hmm.
Impact of Technology on Work-Life Balance
[00:19:30] Sarah: I think another part of what's different, I mean I think it's worse for us now than it was for folks 20, 30 years ago 'cause of technology.
[00:19:43] Liam: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:43] Sarah: You, you had to leave your work at work when we did not have computers at our fingertips. Um, it almost feels like because now there's an expectation that you're on your phone. 'cause we're all on our phones to some degree.
[00:20:00] Liam: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:01] Sarah: Um, but there's kind of this degree of we should all be reachable all the time.
[00:20:06] Liam: Yeah.
[00:20:06] Sarah: That if you are not reachable, that means that someone else is and it's not gonna look good, uh, that you are clocking out.
So then you're never really even off the clock. No. In some cases.
[00:20:21] Liam: Yeah.
[00:20:22] Sarah: And people wonder why they're going crazy.
[00:20:25] Liam: Yeah. It's just so, yeah. Uh, man, it's with the, the 'cause we'd all like to disconnect and just leave the phone. And I, you know, in some cases I, I'm able to do that, but it comes with. At some point I'm gonna have to, you know, check because I don't somebody that's the only way that people, um, can reach me.
And whereas, you know, like you're saying in the past there was times when people were just unreachable.
[00:21:00] Sarah: Yeah.
[00:21:00] Liam: But if there's this idea that everyone's got a phone and everyone's, you know, on it at some point, there develops this kind of almost expectation and pressure inside of us where it's like, I mean, if someone texts me, they don't know that I'm trying to not be on my phone.
Like they might be, you know, really needing me or, you know, I might miss out on something I want to do. Uh, it's a constant like, you know, the phone.
[00:21:27] Sarah: An idea I had, I think you had referred to us being machines or kind of humans becoming like machines at some point.
[00:21:34] Liam: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:34] Sarah: And I. It's, I think it's all connected, like the way that we treat each other is how we feel about each other.
So if these corporations are treating us like machines then we see ourselves as machines and we treat ourselves in the way that we don't deserve breaks because machines don't deserve breaks. We don't deserve reflection or time to ourselves because we're a machine. We are meant to serve this something bigger than us.
Something of the bottom line, the company, whatever it may be.
[00:22:08] Liam: Yeah.
[00:22:08] Sarah: Yeah.
[00:22:09] Liam: Yeah. No, that's a good point too. I mean, just simplification of this is what I am. And people point to, uh, which is, you know, another element of like burnout is you can be like, well, how do I not do that? How do I not have this? And I think a lot of the common advice is the, you know, ways to, like, what did I read?
It was the 42%. It was like this 42% rule where like 42% of your day or whatever should be spent, not, it should be resting or not working.
[00:22:41] Sarah: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:42] Liam: And it's like. Again, one that falls back on you to keep that up.
[00:22:47] Sarah: Yeah.
[00:22:47] Liam: Um, but also it's like, what the fuck? Like, why are we bringing that shit into like
[00:22:52] Sarah: Perfect 42%.
[00:22:55] Liam: Like you've made it. Yeah. And you're like now sort of midmaxing your entire, the human experience and sanding down the emergent properties.
[00:23:06] Sarah: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:07] Liam: The things in every moment that we, I can't, you know, predict and that, trying to predict them, trying to get ahead of things all the time is what leads to this whole, like, you know, this, uh, mechanization or this, like, I mean, it's anxiety inducing obviously, but it's, it's something to chew on all the time about.
[00:23:33] Sarah: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:34] Liam: Would the, the me from a month from now, be happy?
[00:23:38] Sarah: Yeah.
[00:23:39] Liam: Uh, with me right now, no. 'cause I'm not, you know, whatever I'm eating, there's
[00:23:44] Sarah: always so much
[00:23:44] Liam: more
[00:23:45] Sarah: you can be doing to improve.
[00:23:46] Liam: Right. I'm, I, I need to delay gratification. Another sort of like personal, like that's on you. Yeah. Ignore the broader, like constant incessant like, pressure to consume and indulge. Um, also that, you know, stuff tastes good, stuff feels good when it's like, it's, that's part of that whole larger system where it's, it's on me to not get burnt out. It's on me to, and you know, it's obviously not, it's a larger thing. It's also on me to not go get, you know, piss drunk every night.
Sure. To try to cope with it.
[00:24:24] Sarah: Yeah.
[00:24:25] Liam: You know, I'm still gonna be walking past a bar all the time, or I'm gonna be seeing ads, or I'm just gonna feel the fact that like at a certain stage of anxiety and burnout and this tension, turning my brain off with whatever substances or whatever I indulge in that I'm gonna be shamed for
[00:24:44] Sarah: mm-hmm.
[00:24:44] Liam: Is really the only thing that's giving me that 42% or whatever the fuck it's like Yeah. Uh, so you do these things and then you have this moralized, I know I shouldn't do this. I should be at the gym.
[00:24:56] Sarah: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:57] Liam: I should spend 10 hours at the gym.
[00:24:59] Sarah: Yeah.
[00:24:59] Liam: Um.
[00:25:01] Sarah: You can't, you can't just, there's always a, a next thing for you to be focusing on.
[00:25:05] Liam: Totally. Yeah. Totally.
[00:25:07] Sarah: So if people shouldn't be trying to fix it themselves, uh, what can we advise our listeners to do?
[00:25:15] Liam: Hmm. Well, I think yeah, the, the, the framing there fixing is interesting 'cause it's like, I think, I mean, I, I still, I just have to go back. I didn't, honestly, this is like the first time I'm even, I'm hearing about it in this way.
Yeah.
Finding Community and Connection
[00:25:33] Liam: But like you extending for community, for connection.
[00:25:39] Sarah: Yeah.
[00:25:41] Liam: I think trying to tackle burnout in its entirety when it is a systemic thing.
[00:25:46] Sarah: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:48] Liam: As with all systemic things, it's like, where's the, you know, the human beings around me.
[00:25:54] Sarah: Totally.
I think that makes a huge difference. Yeah. Um, it's a lot harder to blame yourself or to think that you're doing something wrong.
When you recognize that everyone around you is feeling the same way or in the same boat.
[00:26:10] Liam: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:11] Sarah: To a larger degree. I, part of why I ended up at Kindman and Co is, uh, my union went on strike. So that's a very clear instance in which, you know, community organizing and community action works to try to shape the system. And that's not always across industry, but I, I do agree that whether it be getting to know the people that you work with to some degree or it's something much larger like a union project, um, there's a lot of power in getting to know the people that you're, you're working with.
[00:26:50] Liam: Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I agree. Even in that sense. 'cause I think one of the, the biggest concerns with, you know, standing up, standing out, whatever, is that idea of like, well this is my lifeline. Uh, without this I am destitute. And when you have community, I think, yeah, it's just one, I mean, it's less isolating, but it's also like you have people who are not gonna let you um, go without.
[00:27:20] Sarah: Yeah.
[00:27:21] Liam: And when you have enough of that, it becomes like, you know, it can't be ignored.
[00:27:28] Sarah: Totally.
[00:27:28] Liam: Is that really, like, is it community? I'm trying to, I don't know about.
[00:27:32] Sarah: I mean, I think it's in part community. I think it's framing like, I think framing, I think what we've been talking about is framing. Of understanding that a workplace is typically not a family.
[00:27:47] Liam: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:48] Sarah: Especially if you work for a larger corporation, they typically don't have your best interests at heart or at the very least, they don't see you as, as people.
Um, they see you in what you can provide for them and not to be incredibly nihilistic, but I do think that that's an important concept to understand, because people really, when I talk to my clients, they, they really think that it's, it's on them that they should be working well into the night, um, missing important family events because they, they owe it to their company.
Um, they, there's some, you know, there's a degree of I should be working beyond what I'm being compensated for. And I just, I think it's important that people know what this is, right? That we're, we're signing a social contract, we're saying that I will provide labor if you provide finances. And I think that, you know, it, it's a little bit not as shiny.
But it allows for more understanding of why it's okay maybe to not give it your all, all the time or to check in with yourself if the people that you're working for aren't necessarily doing that for you.
[00:29:07] Liam: Yeah.
[00:29:07] Sarah: If anything, I think unless you work here at Kindman and Co, your boss is typically not going to check in and ask how you're doing.
If anything, they're betting that you are not doing that either.
[00:29:22] Liam: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:22] Sarah: So that you can power through. But I think when it's more, when the terms are just laid out like this of it's labor for compensation, it's a lot easier to, at least for me to kind of take those steps to be like, I will do what I can do, but not at the cost of the things that I value or the things that matter to me.
[00:29:45] Liam: Right. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I mean, that's. Uh, what, what could I add to that? That's, it's thorough. I, um, I, yeah. I feel, yeah, I feel, uh, we're basically near the end.
[00:30:04] Sarah: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:04] Liam: I do feel, uh, just a brief, you know, I feel like in terms of the nihilism thing, I feel like there, the liberatory aspect is maybe found, and I, I think nihilism is seen as nothing matters in a, just a entirely negative way, but it's really more accurately, it's, you know, nothing has an intrinsic meaning. And I think that understanding that encourages us to say, well, whose values are these that I'm living by?
[00:30:42] Sarah: Yeah, definitely.
[00:30:43] Liam: And if there's not an, like, if being a hard worker is not just an objective good we can move away from this idea that there even is good or bad, we can move away from those binaries. And it becomes a more complex situation where, um, yeah, we can create spaces where you have as best possible, it's gonna be messy. I don't know, it's really hard to make things that are like, you know, messy things or human things, but yeah, I, I just think.
Being a boss who checks in, who blurs the line between like, or I guess blurs the line, that doesn't even really need to be a line. Like this idea of like, I'm in charge of you and that's the end of that. Yeah, just recognizing that it's always, you're always, when you're sitting with a human, you're talking to a human and keeping that in mind when we can be like, you know, we don't like systems, we don't support systems, but we honor individuals.
[00:31:48] Sarah: Definitely.
[00:31:49] Liam: And take them as such. Mm-hmm. It was really interesting. I, I didn't know, uh, really the ins and outs of your Kaiser experience, but that was. That was interest. That was, I mean, I'm happy you're here, so I'm happy that you're not there, but, uh,
[00:32:05] Sarah: I'm also very happy that I'm here too.
[00:32:07] Liam: Yeah. But I also, yeah, I'm still just like, wow. Yeah. That's just such a good example of ways that we can reach for connection in those situations and see what, what emerges.
[00:32:17] Sarah: Definitely.
Um,
Conclusion and Sign Off
[00:32:18] Liam: I feel like this was a great talk.
[00:32:21] Sarah: I think so too. I hope it's helpful to those that were listening.
[00:32:25] Liam: Yeah, I hope so too.
Um, how do these things end? Why don't you send us, sign us off.
[00:32:32] Sarah: Um, thank you for listening. We clearly don't know how to sign off. If you are interested in exploring these topics more, um, kind of getting in touch with, uh, what those values are for you. You can check us out on our website at kindman.co.
Well kind Yes. Um,
[00:32:53] Liam: kindman.co
[00:32:54] Sarah: That sounds right.
[00:32:55] Liam: And there's links all over the place.
[00:32:56] Sarah: Yeah, you'll find us.
[00:32:57] Liam: You've got your phone. We know you have your phone.
[00:32:59] Sarah: But yeah, definitely check us out and we hope to see you soon.
[00:33:03] Liam: All right. Thanks. Bye.
[00:33:04] Sarah: Thanks.
Today's episode is bringing you to the book, “Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle” by Emily Nagoski, PhD and Amelia Nagoski DMA. In this book they talk about what you can do to complete the biological stress cycle—and return your body to a state of relaxation, how to manage the “monitor” in your brain that regulates the emotion of frustration, and much more.
Interested in learning more about the Kaiser Permanente mental health workers that Sarah was talking about? Check out this article.
Be sure to check out our blog at Kindman & Co. blog - Paul Kindman has a post on Rest, Its Many Facets and the Consequences of Rest Neglect. You can also find the full transcript of this episode there as well. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you next time.
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