On Breaking Toxic Masculinity: Insights On Vulnerability & Emotional Healing
In this episode of Out of Session with Kindman & Company, Jesse introduces a heartfelt and deeply personal conversation about masculinity, featuring Paul Kindman, Steve Wilson, and Liam DeGeorgio. Together, they explore how rigid gender norms and unspoken rules about what it means to “be a man” can shape — and often distort — emotional development, connection, and self-expression. Through stories of childhood memories, societal messages, and therapeutic insight, the trio reflects on the harm of traditional masculinity and begins to imagine more expansive, tender, and truthful ways of being. What follows is a candid, moving, and often vulnerable exchange about what masculinity has meant — and what it could become.
Setting the Stage: What This Conversation Is About
Jesse: Hi, I'm Jesse and you're listening to Out of Session with Kindman & Company, a Feelings Forward podcast where we leave our therapist selves at the door and have messy, real conversations about being human.
Jesse: Today's episode features a conversation on masculinity between Paul, Steve and Liam.
Why Masculinity Matters in Therapy & Beyond
Jesse: They share personal experiences of how gendered norms and expectations have contributed to emotional harm, rejection of the vital parts of ourselves, and limiting ideas about masculine identity. Their conversation also delves into new and more expansive ways of being masculine, how important it is to model ways of showing up that encourage sensitivity, vulnerability, affection, and gentleness.
Jesse: Thanks, Paul, Steve and Liam for a thoughtful and tender conversation.
Jesse: Here they are.
Paul Kindman: My name is Paul Kindman.
Paul Kindman: I am one of the co founders of Kindman & Co., and I'm super excited to be here today with two of our wonderful team members, Steve and Liam.
Paul Kindman: And we're going to be talking about a little bit about masculinity and some of our lived experiences as men in our society and why it's really important for, first of all, for men to be therapists, for some of us to have experiences in therapy. But first, I'm really excited because this is the first time that we have one of our newest team members with us on the. On the podcast. So I'm going to throw it over to you, Liam.
Liam DeGeorgio: Oh, hello. I'm Liam.
Liam DeGeorgio: I'm new and I'm excited to be here. Talk about masculinity. It's something that's obviously important to me because it's imposed upon me and sort of why I got into being a therapist at all. So I have a lot to say I look forward to discussing. I'll pass it to Steve.
Steve Wilson: Awesome. I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say about it. I'm Steve. I love this topic. It's interesting. I'm also sick of the topic at times. It's very much part of conversation, very much all of the time. But hopefully this is a little bit of an antidote to the manosphere podcasts that are flying around everywhere.
Steve Wilson: But this is a great topic. I relate to it as a gay man myself, which complicates things.
Steve Wilson: So I'm gonna bring some of that perspective, hopefully for us today. But I'm curious to get to know each of you a little better and see what this topic brings out in all of us.
Paul Kindman: So, I mean, I think one thing that the three of us have in common is that we're sensitive dudes.
Paul Kindman: It's one of the things that I really appreciate about both of you.
Paul Kindman: Right. That we can go there together. That we really value feeling being impacted, which I think isn't necessarily modeled for a lot of us.
Steve Wilson: No, I would agree. I think so much of, like, what traditional masculinity tends to expect is individuality and, like, strength, which can be really isolating for folks, and it can be really limiting in how we express ourselves, how we feel our feelings, or not at all.
Steve Wilson: Yeah, just. Just riffing on your thoughts.
Liam DeGeorgio: Yeah. I mean, it's an encouraged amputation of huge parts of yourself.
Liam DeGeorgio: And I think as we start to talk about our little stories, and you just. You can kind of trace back, as you were growing up, the moments when, oh, I realized this is not a part. This is not a part of what it means to be a man onto the next thing, and you're sort of just partitioning yourself until you're in this tiny little box.
Liam DeGeorgio: So, yeah, I lost my train of thought. Let's just keep rolling.
Early policing of gender expression
Steve Wilson: I like that. No, that's a good segue into more of the body of our discussion where we wanted to share a little bit more about a story or kind of some history about us, which helps kind of illustrate how we relate to masculinity. A time when each of us had the experience understanding that there are rules associated with masculinity or parts of ourselves that we had to cut off. Like you were saying that we learned what masculinity was, quote, unquote, supposed to be.
Steve Wilson: Who wants to dive in?
Steve Wilson: Liam?
Liam’s Story: A Childhood Memory of Affection & Rejection
Liam DeGeorgio: Yeah, absolutely. Well, okay, I have two of. The first one is very brief. It's just that when I was.
Liam DeGeorgio: It's a core memory for me. I've talked about it a lot, but essentially, when I was a child and I sort of was learning, I had a best friend who was also a boy, and we would hug when we would say goodbye, and on one moment, we sort of both had this similar thought about, well, you know, sometimes your parents, they kiss you on the cheek, so, you know, we should do that. We're friends.
Liam DeGeorgio: I did that. And I got in the car, and my dad was immediately like, hey, don't.
Steve Wilson: You.
Liam DeGeorgio: Do not do that.
Liam DeGeorgio: And I was like, oh, why? And he wouldn't tell me. He just said, don't do that.
Liam DeGeorgio: And he's not even.
Liam DeGeorgio: Well, who knows what his real thoughts are? But he's a pretty neoliberal, whatever guy. So it was kind of shocking. I must. I was like, I really must have screwed up here.
Steve Wilson: How old were you when that was?
Liam DeGeorgio: I was five.
Steve Wilson: Like, really young.
Liam DeGeorgio: I mean, I was like, Yeah. I was a little kid who.
Liam DeGeorgio: Yeah. And I think it wasn't.
Liam DeGeorgio: And I just.
Liam DeGeorgio: Yeah. And I remember it on a few levels in terms of like, there's the kiss itself. And now I realize I don't really enjoy kissing at all. Which may have some connection, but it's also just an expression of, you're my best friend. Yeah.
Paul Kindman: You just wanted to show some affection.
Liam DeGeorgio: Totally.
Paul Kindman: To someone you really like.
Liam DeGeorgio: Yeah. And they do it in France, but not here. So.
Liam DeGeorgio: Yeah, that was my first encounter.
Liam DeGeorgio: And I remember people really agreeing.
Liam DeGeorgio: My mom sort of shrugged it off, but people were sort of like, yeah, that makes sense. I would have also told you not to do that.
Liam DeGeorgio: So it's interesting that way. I don't know if the stories that either of you will have will have a similar theme, but there's this. There's no explanation.
Liam DeGeorgio: It's sort of like, hey, don't do that.
Liam DeGeorgio: And you don't really get to ask why. You sort of have to learn.
Steve Wilson: Yeah.
Steve Wilson: I really appreciate you sharing that story. And I think that what stands out to me is like, how young you were and how quick the response was from your dad or whoever was around. And this is just an honest expression of like, hey, this is my friend. We love each other. Like, let's show each other that affection. And I think there's something really sweet about that and really heartbreaking about how this is just like, oh, you're not supposed to do that. Dudes don't do that. And I think that often folks who are raised as girls don't get that sort of restricted idea of how they're supposed to show love to each other.
Bell Hooks & the First Act of Patriarchal Violence
Steve Wilson: And I think for me, so much of it stems from homophobia. I think that we all suffer from homophobic, like just that fear of showing love to each other.
Steve Wilson: And I know I was going to save this for later, but I just want to dive into one of my favorite writers, speakers, people on this subject, bell hooks, who I recommend that everyone read her book, The Will to Change.
Steve Wilson: And as you were talking, Liam, this came to my mind. And she wrote, the first act of violence that patriarchy demands of males is not violence toward women. Instead, patriarchy demands of all males that they engage in acts of psychic self mutilation, that they kill off the emotional parts of themselves.
Steve Wilson: If an individual is not successful and emotionally crippling himself, he can count on patriarchal men to enact rituals of power that will assault his self esteem.
Steve Wilson: And ableist language of that word crippling aside, I think that's a really Important point that, like, the world conspires to make sure that you know this stuff, that you know that you're supposed to, like, carve that out of your experience.
Steve’s Story: Dance, Expression, & Gendered Expectations
Steve Wilson: But the story that comes to my mind is when I was a kid, probably around the same age, maybe six or seven, I was a part of a, like, dance group. It was very, like, dance moms. And it was a weird space to be a boy because it was mostly girls, and so boys were, like, especially valuable. Everyone was, like, really excited that there was a boy as a part of the group. And so in that way, it felt really empowering and celebrated to be, like, doing something different. It was expressive, but at the same time, that masculinity stuff would show up in that kind of, like, restrictive way. And so we would be getting ready for performances, and when you're on, you know, stage, there are bright lights and everything, so everyone would have, like, makeup, and, like, even the boys would be wearing makeup.
Steve Wilson: But I was like, oh, this is so fun and exciting.
Steve Wilson: And I remember, like, putting lipstick on my face, like, six years old. Be like, this is so funny. And so I, like. I kissed the mirror just to see, you know. Cause, you know, you see that, like, you see that in movies or whatever, and it's funny I did that. And one of the other boys, who was also dancing but was a couple years older than me, was, like, so upset by this and was like, that's not okay.
Steve Wilson: And I don't remember exactly what he said, but his response was, like, fairly physically violent.
Steve Wilson: And that sort of bullying that I think a lot of us deal with when we express something that's not, like, traditionally masculine. Like, I think masculinity is in conversation and always there with femininity. And I think me having an expression of a typically feminine thing, such as, like, you know, that glamour or that, like, playfulness or whatever was threatening to that masculine kind of expectation. And so that was my experience of, like, you're not supposed to, like, adorn yourself or be, like, really into this sort of.
Masculinity as Performance
Steve Wilson: This sort of thing. And I think back on that a lot whenever I have this conversation with people, that it can be actually pretty dangerous, the response that you get from people if you don't adhere to expectations of masculinity. And I think that's one of the things that keeps us restrained, is that it can be really threatening psychologically and physically to be different.
Liam DeGeorgio: Oof.
Steve Wilson: Sorry to bring you. Bring y'all down.
Paul Kindman: That's real.
Liam DeGeorgio: I appreciate you sharing. I think it also highlights what is acceptable for young boys, which is, you know, you can kick the crap out of people and that's sort of the only physical contact you're going to get. So some people don't miss an opportunity.
Liam DeGeorgio: But yeah, that is too bad. Especially at a young age. It's all too common.
Paul Kindman: Yeah, yeah. I mean, right. When, when certain kinds of contact or connection are deemed wrong or bad.
Paul Kindman: Right. Of course we reach for the, for the ones that, that we can, that we have access to. It's interesting. I mean like listening to both of your stories, I found pieces of my own lived experience and each of them, like Liam, when you were talking about the kiss, I immediately went to 8 year old me similarly loving my friend and doing what you do when you love someone. And I kissed him and his reaction was so intense.
Paul Kindman: Where it wasn't an adult in my life that said it wasn't okay. It was my friend who pushed me away or maybe even pushed, punched me as a response.
Paul Kindman: Wow. Right.
Paul Kindman: As a response to just like, hey, I like you, I have so much fun with you.
Liam DeGeorgio: Right.
The Impact of Patriarchy on Emotional Life
Paul Kindman: And similarly, probably around the same age when, which is when we moved to the United States from Ukraine, I left and it was just me and my mom and you know, the sort of. My main kind of male figures were my uncle, my grandfather, and they both stayed behind for the time being and I really missed them and I found myself and I started getting into fights at school.
Paul Kindman: And my guess is kind of looking back at it now was that like I was really craving connection with like that male kind of camaraderie, connection, guidance. And I wasn't getting that. And as a response, I was put into karate classes.
Paul Kindman: Right. To help me continue to work out my physical stuff. But maybe not so much control your aggression. Exactly. But not kind of meet that need for that male connection.
Steve Wilson: I appreciate your story in the way that you're pointing out how so much like it was kind of a bid for connection, but channeled through this more potentially like socially acceptable way of finding connection that like you just wanted to have some sort of contact with somebody but the appropriate way to do it was like, let's get into a fight.
Steve Wilson: Maybe there was more going on there, but I think that's true for so many men that like, it is a way of like having a connection to your feelings, but it's, it's not vulnerable, it's a, it's like socially acceptable aggressive outward expression of what's happening. But there's not a lot of like sensitivity there.
Paul Kindman: Right, right.
Physicality as a Mask for Emotional Connection
Liam DeGeorgio: Yeah. And I think back to how I would often start fights with friends, but then I would very much let myself lose. And I remember enjoying the feeling of being sort of held and not being in control, and they would throw me around or whatever. I was a very durable child, so it didn't really matter. But I remember enjoying that, but also knowing I can never really express why I like this. But it's what you're saying. I mean, it touches on that thing that's missing, is that if we could just sit around and watch a movie in a pile, I wouldn't feel the need to, you know.
Paul Kindman: To try to tackle you.
Liam DeGeorgio: Yeah. You know, to pick a fight to get it.
Loneliness & Disconnection
Steve Wilson: So I think that's really important. I think that one of the things that comes of that is so much like loneliness and disconnection across the board for so many men that I talk to both as friends, but in the course of my work, that it can feel really hard to forge that deeper connection that feels rewarding. And I just want to bring us to the point, since all three of us here being therapists that somewhat specialize, I think, just by nature, of who we are in being there to connect with men that come and sit with us. And so I just wanted to kind of explore the idea of how it can be helpful or important to have a therapist who is a male, how it can be challenging to be.
Steve Wilson: To have a therapist that is male, maybe share some of our own experiences on both sides of that dynamic.
Steve Wilson: I think I'll jump in myself just to get started. But that one, like, I've had several therapists, and I think one of the things that's been really important to me is to seek out somebody who has an identity similar to mine. Because I think that puts me at ease to be able to say, like, you know, here's what I've been through as a gay man living in this world. Having someone who has that experience, too, automatically just puts me in this sense of, like, okay, you just get it. I don't have to explain to you what it's like to wonder how to show affection with another man. As I'm talking, though, I'm realizing, like, just from our conversation, like, this is not something that's only specific to being a gay man, but is, like, something all of us share. But I think that initial sense of comfort that I got out of seeking out someone to help me that had an identity similar to mine was really important. I think that helped me, like, just ease into that relationship of, like, I think you get it, and let's go from there.
“The full spectrum of human emotion that we can express affection and joy and love and playfulness and silliness, and that all of these are essential parts of what it means to be a man”
Therapy as a Space for Reparative Male Connection
Steve Wilson: And it's funny to me that most of my friends have been women throughout my life, but that when I sought out to have that therapy connection with someone, I was like, I really just want to have a man there who can understand that. And I think that says a lot about, like. That was a missing connection that I didn't know or didn't feel was available to me until it was, like, explicitly there with a therapist.
Steve Wilson: I'm curious about your experiences.
Paul Kindman: Yeah, yeah, Steve. I'm just, like, reflecting on what you're sharing. And similarly, you know, as I was talking about earlier as a kid, I think I was really craving that kind of that connection, that love, that masculine love in particular, especially as a kid who was raised without a dad.
Paul Kindman: And I actually didn't have a therapist who is a. Who identifies as a man until probably my mid-30s.
Paul Kindman: I'm gonna actually just shout out. To. Shout out to John.
Paul Kindman: I really appreciate you.
Steve Wilson: Thanks, John.
Liam DeGeorgio: Thanks, John.
Paul Kindman: There's something, and it's a little, like, ineffable. I know it's hard to put words to it, but to have the experience of being kind of mirrored, like, seen fully in all parts of my humanity by another man in an environment like therapy where I show up fully unfiltered as myself, that's been. It's been an experience that I just. I'm so grateful for.
Paul Kindman: And if I can be a part of providing that for some of my clients, gosh, I've lived a worthwhile life.
Paul Kindman: It's actually been just something. Just a big part of, I think my story of.
Paul Kindman: Of growing up and finding community and finding, you know, right now I can just reflect on. Just. Some of my dearest friends in adulthood are also our men. And they're men who practice a type and show up with a type of masculinity that is all encompassing.
Paul Kindman: We can cry together, we can laugh together. We're comfortable with affection.
Paul Kindman: It's something that I'm just incredibly grateful for, though, and something that's been hard to find.
Liam DeGeorgio: Yeah, it's not easy.
Liam DeGeorgio: I'm glad that you had sort of that experience, that modeling experience.
The Harm of Traditional Masculinity in Therapy
Liam DeGeorgio: It's a similar reason I came from the opposite direction, but it's also why I wanted to be a therapist, particularly because when I did work with young boys, I found that they connected with me well. And then when they saw somebody like me, somebody who works out, somebody who's really into all these traditionally masculine things, talking about feelings, it just opened up their world.
Liam DeGeorgio: But my first. I've always Had. I've always talked to women. The women in my life were who I really went to with things I needed to uncover.
Liam DeGeorgio: And I don't quite remember what brought me to the only male therapist I've ever had in my early 20s.
Liam DeGeorgio: I won't say his name, but he was just very much a.
Liam DeGeorgio: He was sort of very. Solution focused, cognitive, behavioral.
Liam DeGeorgio: Everything that's going on is something.
Liam DeGeorgio: You're not getting it. You're not quite understanding how things are done. You're a little more anxious than you need to be. You're a little too sensitive. At a certain point, we need to pull back.
Liam DeGeorgio: And it was strange to hear from a therapist. I think if I had stopped there, I don't think I would have become a therapist. Thankfully, I found somebody else, but it was just.
Liam DeGeorgio: I guess it's a reminder of. It's really pervasive. And he was an older man, but it's pervasive. And, yeah, I'm just thinking about.
Liam DeGeorgio: Often when I'm talking to clients, I try to think, what would he do? And then I don't do that.
Steve Wilson: Counter example.
Liam DeGeorgio: Yeah. Yeah.
Liam DeGeorgio: Because it was sort of the same.
Liam DeGeorgio: The same old thing. I specifically didn't want male therapists.
Liam DeGeorgio: I still have a hard time talking with men who are older than me. There's always been a thing there. Just would rather talk to women. I feel there's a. I can just sort of be more open.
Liam DeGeorgio: And he just really affirmed that, like, yeah, there's nothing. You know, if you want to talk to me, you're gonna have to fit into this box.
Liam DeGeorgio: So, yeah, it had the potential to be regressive, but, you know, we spun it around.
Steve Wilson: I'm glad you. I'm glad you kept going. And I think that. I mean, I'm thinking of the contrast between the way you describe yourself there for your clients and the way you described that particular therapist for you, and the way that, like, he had this real, like, bought into these traditional kind of ideas of, like, oh, this is just how you do it. Like, I'm going to need you to put those feelings away. Yeah.
Steve Wilson: And how.
Steve Wilson: How, like, damaging that is, how, like, real fragile that that can be, because it was never really nurtured so much of the time that, like, some. Somebody just saying, like, this is too much, you're too sensitive here can be really crushing.
Liam DeGeorgio: Absolutely.
Role of the Therapist as a Model of Healthy Masculinity
Steve Wilson: And it can be really, really, like, a huge setback. And at the same time, I'm thinking about you showing up with your clients, being somebody who's, like, presenting as pretty, like, masculine yourself. And like, having these interests that we associate with, like, typical maleness, whatever, but also being there and being sensitive and showing that there is this balance that is possible feels like such a more expansive way of showing up for people. And I think that, you know, being here with clients, it feels really powerful when I know that they're seeking out from me a kind of balanced male presence, whether or not that is their intention.
Steve Wilson: Some people have actually shown up and been like, I want a male therapist, because the men in my life have been bad examples or have felt harmful or whatever, that knowing that they could find a therapist that can show up for them as a male identified masculine person, but also be nurturing, caring and supportive is a healing experience for them.
Paul Kindman: Yeah, I mean, that's honestly what I see.
Paul Kindman: Our main role as therapists, or a big role that we play as therapists with our clients is modeling. Right. It's how we show up. It's how we wear our masculinity. Right. That we can.
Paul Kindman: We can show up with anger. Right. Anger is a really important part of the experience of masculinity. Right. And. And we can use that to inform where we need to set boundaries in our lives.
Paul Kindman: Right. Anger as a sort of a signal for this is not okay.
Paul Kindman: Right. While also modeling having access to the full spectrum, Steve, like you're saying, the full spectrum of human emotion that we can express affection and joy and love and playfulness and silliness, and that all of these are essential parts of what it means to be a man.
Steve Wilson: Totally, absolutely. I want to kind of steer us out of the conversation, but with.
The Call to Redefine Masculinity
Steve Wilson: Perhaps we started off with how restrictive and kind of damaging these sort of traditional ideas of masculinity can be. And I want to open it up to hearing what all of us go to for maybe a more healthy or more expansive example of masculinity, whether it's a person, a book, piece of art, whatever. What do you go to when you're like. Or what do you think of when you think of it? Example of healthy masculinity.
Positive Male Role Models
Paul Kindman: I think, you know, when I. The first.
Paul Kindman: The first person that just pops into my mind and it's someone who's not around anymore, unfortunately, it's my grandfather. He passed away a few years ago, but he. For me, Even though in a lot of ways, you know, I mean, he was. He was hardened by the Soviet Union growing up, you know, as a. As a Jew in the Soviet Union, losing a lot of family in the Holocaust as a kid.
Paul Kindman: And at the same time, he retained this.
Paul Kindman: This Level of sensitivity and lovingness. This, like, this gentleness, softness.
Paul Kindman: He was such a nurturer in my family. He was the person who I considered my hero as a kid because he was so intelligent and seemed to sort of know everything and at the same time could just be the gentlest, softest, most nurturing person. So I think it's certainly like, that's a place where I go. That's a relationship where I go, even even though he's not around anymore.
Paul Kindman: It's a relationship that I often take comfort in.
Paul Kindman: And honestly, I think where I was one of the main people who taught me how to love.
Steve Wilson: That's beautiful. I love that, like, throughout all of the hardship, you see that he retained that sensitivity and that nurturing quality when it would be so easy to just be hard.
Paul Kindman: Yeah.
Steve Wilson: Yeah. That's beautiful.
Liam DeGeorgio: Yeah, yeah. That's incredible.
Liam DeGeorgio: When I think about men in my life, who I really look up to is like, I. I have not met men who kind of embody that sensitivity until I honestly came here to Kindman & Co. And saw the way that people kind of just talked about things.
Literature & Thought Leaders on redefining masculinity
Liam DeGeorgio: I will say one of the big spaces. This is not. I don't know him, but he's a YouTuber named FD Signifier, and he does incredible work talking about masculinity.
Liam DeGeorgio: He does a lot with black masculinity, but he touches on both in the manosphere.
Liam DeGeorgio: And these videos are hours long. And so I just.
Liam DeGeorgio: I just sort of. I'm grounded by how him being a very traditionally masculine man, talking about, you know, all these different topics, not being afraid to be called.
Liam DeGeorgio: He gets called all things gay, and he gets called all these things that he just doesn't see them as they're meant to be, which is they're meant to be slurs. And he's like, I don't know if, you know, I care. I care about men, and I care about men showing up how they genuinely are. And it's that mix that you kind of describe of the.
Liam DeGeorgio: I don't want to use the word stoic because I think it's been kind of bastardized by, you know, tech bros and Silicon Valley and stuff. But, like, there's just this stability and there's kind of a strength, but it's that same strength that can hold on to you when you need some nurturing. The same strength that does something, like, lifts up a heavy thing. I don't know, whatever. Whatever.
Liam DeGeorgio: Men do that kind of stuff.
Steve Wilson: I love that. I love the idea of, like, strength being nurturing at the same time, I think it's like, strength can be so brittle.
Steve Wilson: A lot of the time when it comes to, like, masculine ideas of strength and just being like, God, gotta be perfect and strong.
Steve Wilson: But the idea of being nurturing there is also really important.
Steve Wilson: I love your. I love both your examples, and each of them brings, like, all kinds of other thoughts to me. And it's like, oh, wait, there are a lot of examples of this in my life. So I feel very lucky. And it makes me think of my dad, who was, like, complicated and no one's perfect. But also, he loved to garden, and he is a big fan of classical music. And I think he got a lot of.
Steve Wilson: A lot of flack from his family for not being, like, really masculine, but he always embraced that. He was a real nurturer in my family. And, like, you know, he loves to cook.
Steve Wilson: He likes to bring everyone around and show care for them in those ways. And that's really been an example in my life. And those are things that I love to do as well. And.
Steve Wilson: But I also go to, like, thinkers who explore other ways of. Of relating to masculinity. And I already mentioned bell hooks, the will to change. Who said that in order to create loving men, we have to love men?
Steve Wilson: And I will recommend that book till the day I die for anyone who. Anyone who is a man has been a man who has loved a man, who has been hurt by a man who has ever had to be around men before. I think that's a really important text for us all, and I think it can. It has a lot to say, and it's a good conversation starter, and I just want to give a shout out to another book. I just love the way that these typically mostly female authors have had conversations about masculinity. And this is one by Sophie Strand, who's a poet, a white woman living in the Hudson Valley. She wrote a book called The Flowering Wand. And she takes all these ideas of masculinity being strong and, like, warrior, like, and kind of subverts them and looks at, you know, how other versions of masculinity exist. Like looking at Dionysus and these old ancient gods and kind of who were much more about joy and pleasure and nurturing and rebirth and creation and not just anger and destruction. So there are so many different ways of conceptualizing masculinity that I find really rewarding to get into.
Steve Wilson: Lots of examples out there if you want to go find them.
Paul Kindman: Yeah.
Steve Wilson: Well, thank you both for being in this conversation.
Liam DeGeorgio: Well, thank you.
Steve Wilson: Let's Wrap it up here.
Paul Kindman: Yeah.
Paul Kindman: Really appreciate you both showing up, sharing, vulnerably sharing, openly sharing some really important information.
Steve Wilson: Yeah.
Liam DeGeorgio: Yeah. Well, it's all there is to do.
Steve Wilson: That's all there is to do. Have more conversation.
Paul Kindman: Yeah.
Liam DeGeorgio: Cool.
Paul Kindman: Well, and hopefully together we can work toward redefining. Right. What we mean when we say masculine so that when we say masculine, we're not alluding to traditional masculinity, but when we use the word masculinity, we're talking about this full spectrum of human experience.
Liam DeGeorgio: Yeah. I'd love to do a part two at some point.
Steve Wilson: Part two to come. Yeah, I love it. I'm in.
—
Jesse: Thanks for listening. If you want to decolonize your feed, we're inviting you to check out FD Signifier, who Liam mentioned in the podcast. FD Signifier is a YouTube content creator known for doing analysis of black movies and media. You might have seen his recent videos on Dissecting the Manosphere and Connecting the Manosphere. You can also find him on his Twitter account and we'll put all the links in the description of the episode.
Jesse: And this podcast is bringing you to your friend's front door phone or DMs to ask the question, how are you really doing? In the spirit of showing up for, nurturing and supporting each other in ways that traditional masculinity inhibits, we're inviting you to be there with your friends, show some vulnerability, lessen the loneliness of traditional masculinity in favor of connection and mutual care.
Featured therapist speakers:
Liam DeGeorgio, AMFT, is a neurodivergent associate marriage & family therapist who strives to challenge society’s expectations and perceptions of ‘normal’. He lives with ADHD, OCD, and PTSD and enjoys working with clients wanting to challenge toxic masculinity, embrace feminism & anti-racism, and adults with childhood trauma. He loves playing the drums, reading books, his partner, and their four cats.
Paul Kindman, LMFT is an immigrant, refugee and acculturated American. He loves working with couples, partners and multicultural relationships who are navigating unique challenges of honoring many belief systems and traditions within relationships and families.
Steve Wilson is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, a queer man, and a feminist. He loves working with young adults navigating adulthood, folks healing from racial trauma and minority stress, and couples/partners. He is especially drawn to working with adolescents and young adults embracing queerness. He deeply and personally understand the complexities of queer experience and want to help other queer individuals and partners, parents of queer and trans youth, and those practicing consensual non-monogamy (CNM) to build thriving, connected, & healing relationships.
GET HELP NOW
If you are interested in therapy with Kindman & Co. and would like to learn more about the services we have to help you, follow these quick & easy steps:
Schedule a free 20-minute phone consultation with our Care Coordinator.
Get matched with the therapist who’s right for you.
Start feeling more supported and fulfilled in your life and relationships!
THERAPY AT KINDMAN & CO.
We are here for your diverse L.A. counseling needs. Our team of therapists provides lgbtqia+ affirmative therapy, couples therapy & premarital counseling, grief & loss counseling, group therapy, and more. We have specialists in trauma, women's issues, depression & anxiety, substance use, mindfulness & embodiment, and support for creatives. For therapists and practice owners, we also provide consultation and supervision services! We look forward to welcoming you for therapy in Highland Park and online.