On the Podcast: Therapy, Politics, and Purpose: Finding Your Voice with Lillian Farzan
episode summary
In this episode Paul Kindman, co-founder and clinical director, reconnects with Lillian Farzan, a psychotherapist, digital nomad, poet, and activist. The conversation delves into Lillian's journey from interviewing for a position at Kindman and Co. just before the pandemic to establishing her private practice as a therapist while traveling the world. They discuss the impact of COVID-19 on their professional lives, Lillian's personal experiences, including planning a wedding in Israel amidst geopolitical tensions, and the importance of integrating personal values and activism into therapy. They also explore the significance of organizations like Standing Together, which fosters solidarity between Jews and Palestinians, and the ongoing need to address systemic issues affecting mental health.
introduction
You are listening to Out of Session with Kindman and Co. A feelings forward podcast where we leave our therapist selves at the door and have messy real conversations about being human.
In today's episode, we are joined by therapist and digital nomad Lillian Farzan. We explore how personal loss, community care, and political reality shape the way we show up for ourselves and each other. Lillian talks about building a therapy practice on the road in finding solidarity in movements that center around compassion and coexistence.
It's a thoughtful, grounded conversation about what it means to hold complexity in a world that often demands simplicity.
[00:00:49] Paul: Well, hey folks. Um, welcome to out of session with Kindman and Co. Uh, this is Paul Kindman speaking. Um, I'm a, uh, I'm the co-founder of Kindman and Co. I'm also a therapist and the clinical director at our practice, and I am really excited to have a conversation today, uh, with Lillian Farzan.
Reconnecting and Reflecting on the Past
[00:01:15] Paul: Uh, Lillian is, um, an old, old acquaintance. We haven't really been in contact for a number of years, um, but she is. Uh, she's a psychotherapist. Um, she's a self-described digital nomad. She's a poet, uh, and an activist, and I'm so happy to have you here.
[00:01:40] Lillian: Thank you, Paul. I'm so happy to be here with you and so good to reconnect after all this time.
[00:01:46] Paul: I know. I know. It's been a minute.
[00:01:51] Lillian: It's a fun story. Yeah. I think
[00:01:54] Paul: Absolutely. And I think it's, it also, it bears, um, uh, for me to say that, um, as we're recording, I'm sitting here, um, at home in Los Angeles, um, on, actually on election day in the United States. Yeah. Uh, which is fitting for our, for our conversation today.
It just so happened we actually were supposed to record last week and then rescheduled for today. Yeah. Um, so after our conversation today, I'm actually gonna go across the street to my polling place and, uh, drop off my ballot
[00:02:28] Lillian: As you should.
[00:02:29] Paul: Whereas Lillian, you are in Israel right now.
[00:02:34] Lillian: Yes, I'm in Israel, Israel Palestine, and I am here visiting family.
And I think I mentioned to you, planning a wedding. So, uh, yeah, a lot of, a lot of mixed feelings about that. A lot of, uh, you know, intersectionality coming up. A lot of compromise, A lot of, a lot of stuff. We'll, we'll probably get into some of it actually
[00:02:57] Paul: Later on. Yeah, absolutely. I think, I think it's really fitting for, for this conversation.
But yeah, I, I mean, I thought we'd start, uh, I think I'd mentioned, it's funny, this is technically the second time. I am, I'm interviewing you because, uh, yeah, a little over five years ago you interviewed to work, uh, at Kindman and Co. And we met, uh, at I, Kaitlin and I interviewed you at a coffee shop.
[00:03:23] Lillian: Yeah. A really cool coffee shop on the east side.
And I met the both of you. And if I, if memory serves me, this is how I remember it. I think we were all smitten with each other. That's how I remember it. And, and you and Caitlyn offered me a job, which I was so thrilled about because the road to licensure. Was just so burdensome and you know, it's filled with coming and going and burnout and turnaround and agencies and, you know, a lot of that.
And so I was looking to find my people and I felt like, okay, yes, I can land here. This can be my, my like career home, so to say.
Navigating the Pandemic and Starting a Private Practice
[00:04:15] Lillian: And then COVID was like, there were whispers of it.
[00:04:18] Paul: I think this was about two weeks before lockdown.
[00:04:23] Lillian: Yeah. And then, but it was kind of during that time where we all thought like, eh, this will be over in a couple weeks.
[00:04:28] Paul: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:28] Lillian: Which is so crazy in retrospect to think about.
[00:04:33] Paul: Wild, wild. The world absolutely turned on its head.
[00:04:37] Lillian: Everything changed. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:04:42] Paul: Yeah, I know we were, we were super excited to, for you to join us. Yeah, I think you're absolutely, your memory is absolutely correct. I think we were all,
[00:04:50] Lillian: I can say that, right?
[00:04:54] Paul: I think we were all smitten. Yeah. Yeah. We were looking forward to it. And then, yeah, and then the pandemic started. Yeah. And then everything.
[00:05:03] Lillian: Yeah. So I mean, I, I'm happy to speak to like, that, that can be the jumping off point. Yeah. If you like, can fill in the cracks as to how I got to where I am now.
[00:05:12] Paul: I would, yeah, I, I think I, I'd love to hear more about that.
I, um, I hope our listeners would too. Yeah. How did you get to where you are now?
[00:05:22] Lillian: So, I, I must have interviewed with you all. After I, I got my license, or, or maybe it was prior actually, because I actually, I had taken the exam with a mask on, so it must have been further into COVID. So I must have been like proactively interviewing with you.
Yeah, that makes sense. So we all know what happened in 2020, something called COVID happened, and during that time, I got my license in September, 2020, and. Because of the situation and because of lockdown, there was never a reason for me to rent an office space. I remember emailing you and Kaitlin and being like, Hey, I'm thinking about moving to the east side just so I could like work with you guys.
You know, we didn't know which way was up at at that point, and that didn't happen. And I decided, okay, I am just gonna do this myself.
Embracing the Digital Nomad Lifestyle
[00:06:22] Lillian: And so I started doing private practice and eventually down the road, I, I wanna say like maybe a year later when things were not as intense, pandemic wise, a friend of mine had invited me to come visit her in England.
And so that was the first time where I decided I'm gonna take my job with me abroad. You know, I work for myself. I'm not on any insurance panels. Mm-hmm. So it's possible for me to do that. I checked with all my, you know, relevant boards and everything, and I found that, okay, all I need, I was a bit nervous at the time, but I found out all I need is good wifi and of course, you know, a private, confidential space.
And so since then I, I went to many other places. Um. I eventually, I met my partner here in Israel. I have family here and um, now, and he's a bit of a digital nomad too, and so now it's just kind of interwoven in our lives.
Personal and Professional Growth
[00:07:25] Lillian: And, uh, somewhere along the way, I, I worked on a lot of imposter syndrome around being a writer and a poet.
And now at this point I've got, like, I wanna say, just under 10 publications. I've gotta like sit down and count, but somewhere between five and 10, which is really, really exciting. Personally, like to just own, you know, because I was talking to my life coach, uh, via email and she's all, Hey, remember when you said you wanted to do this and you were super scared?
Like you got it. You, you're owning it. You've stepped into this part of your identity and. It was very nice to have that reflected back.
[00:08:03] Paul: Hmm, of course. I can imagine. Yeah. Yeah. That's quite the accomplishment and,
[00:08:09] Lillian: Yeah.
[00:08:10] Paul: Yeah. I've gotta say, like, kinda listening to you describe this, this journey one, one of the things I remember when I was first, uh, entertaining the idea of becoming a therapist in the process of becoming a therapist, um, one of the downsides I saw to that was.
That, oh, to be a therapist, you have to really have some deep roots planted in one place. Um, that being a therapist means, uh, being a consistent presence in your clients' lives, which means showing up week in and week out and week in and week out. And I really like to travel. And I was like, wait, if I'm signing up for this career, does this mean that I'm giving up?
Uh. Uh, seeing the world with any kind of, of regularity.
[00:09:02] Lillian: Yeah, totally. I remember in undergrad, so I went to uc, Santa Cruz, and, uh, this like all star teacher, everyone looked up to Ralph Quinn, he said, in a clinical psych class. Yeah. That's the one downside of, of this job, like, you can't leave because you'll be leaving your whole clientele.
Mm.
And I mean, yeah, COVID just changed everything. Complete game changer.
[00:09:27] Paul: Um, and, and I've certainly, I, I've heard of others doing this of course, especially since the pandemic, but it sounds like you, yeah. You're really doing it. You are, you've got a, a practice. You're, you're able to consistently show up for your clients and you've been all over the world.
Uh,
[00:09:45] Lillian: Yeah. Pretty marvelous. I mean, it's not all rainbows and butterflies, you know, planes, trains, automobiles, that it's, it's real life. It comes with, its. Challenges, but I think it's worth it.
[00:09:58] Paul: Mm-hmm.
Travel Adventures and Cultural Experiences
[00:09:59] Paul: Can I ask, uh, what are some of kind of your favorite stops along the way? Uh, uh, over the past five plus years?
[00:10:06] Lillian: Yeah. I have a special place in my heart for Barcelona. Before I met my partner, I was thinking about moving there. I actually met with an immigration, uh, lawyer and everything, and did a consultation. Um. And then besides that, I mean, Amsterdam was a lovely time and I, I would say most recently we got back from Thailand, uh, an island called Cogan, Thailand.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, we got back in May after being there for about six. Wow. Yeah. Six months. That's so crazy. It's like coming outta my mouth. I can't believe that happened. Um, but yeah, that was so, so special and different and just like a. You know, very, very hot, but paradise. Uh, and then I came back to LA and of course faced so much culture shock.
[00:10:58] Paul: I, I can imagine. I can imagine. Yeah.
Paul's European Journey and Professional Insights
[00:11:02] Paul: And
[00:11:02] Lillian: Paul, you just got back from Europe?
[00:11:04] Paul: Yeah, yeah, we just did. Uh, uh, we just got to spend two weeks, uh, in Europe. Uh, Kaitlin and I, um, the first week. On a family vacation. Uh, actually it was a, for a very special reason, it was to, uh, to celebrate her grandmother's hundredth, upcoming hundredth birthday.
And she came with us and it was, uh, just unreal to watch her, uh, globe trot at that age. It was really inspiring actually.
Uh, so spec.
Yeah. And then on, on the, on the tail end of the trip, we, um, we attended this, uh, spectacular conference. Uh, uh, it was a trauma conference in, in Oxford, England, where we got to see some of the, um, just some of the preeminent
Scholars and therapists kind of doing, doing fantastic work. Uh, yeah, and I came back. I came back real jazzed. Really inspired and yeah, and actually really in a lot of ways really validated, um, by some of what I've heard about, particularly about the way that we approach, uh, therapy at our practice. Um.
Kind of really trying to take in this, this, uh, take a systemic approach looking at, um, the impact of our society on,
[00:12:30] Paul: On our individual and interpersonal challenges. And it seems to be, at least based on what I heard, that is kind of where the field is moving. And it's, it's exciting to see that.
[00:12:44] Lillian: Yeah.
Makes a whole lot of sense. And, and what a day to talk about it.
[00:12:49] Paul: Whew. Yeah. I'm gonna take a deep breath.
Global Challenges and Personal Reflections
[00:12:52] Paul: I'm noticing as, just as I'm, as I'm thinking about the state of the world, uh, that's one of the things that's been just consistently weighing on me, and I think weighing on a lot of, uh, sensitive, caring people, um, about just like what is happening not only in the United States and, um.
In, in this country, but really all over the world right now. And how, um, because of technology, because of how quickly information moves these days, we are constantly inundated and aware of all of the intense, awful, traumatic things that are going on. Uh, yeah. And, and I personally, I mean, I'll say personally.
In places that are really dear to my heart. You know, certainly with the war in Ukraine raging over the last several years. That's, that's my homeland. Yeah, that's where I was born. Um. Really, really painful to watch. Um, and you know, the, where you're sitting right now, Israel is where, uh, my family very, very nearly moved when I was eight years old.
Yeah. There's an alternate universe where I grow up in Israel and Yes. Um, watching what's happening in Palestine, Gaza in particular, um, horrific. Horrific, yeah.
Family History and Immigration Trauma
[00:14:29] Lillian: I, um, I'll give a little background as to, to how I ended up here. So, so my family is Iranian and they immigrated, most of them immigrated to the states after the revolution in 79.
And, you know, it was not a safe place generally speaking, you know, to be in Iran, but especially for minoritized individuals. Um. And so they were told that they could come to Israel and that it was a, a, a safe place for them. And you know, I think, I think of like what it was like for them. And of course I have in perspective everything that I know now.
And they're just people doing their best, like doing what they were told they could do following directions. And anyway, so many of them ended up here wanting to move to America. Some of them couldn't. Some of them ultimately decided to stay, and so there, I think there was a bit of immigration trauma.
Everyone kind of cringes when I ask about Iran and what it was like and how I so badly would like to go there in my lifetime. Mm-hmm. And it's a very sensitive subject, um, for my family. And, uh, yeah, so now it's, it's a bit of a split where I have family that I grew up with in America and then the majority of my father's family.
Lives here. And so my father passed away a couple of years ago. I don't know if I told you this, Paul. And, and so that's,
[00:16:01] Paul: I didn't
know that. I'm so sorry.
[00:16:03] Lillian: Yeah. Yeah. So, so I think on our call, I, I had a moment where I was like, I'm wondering how much I should share. So that's part of it. So I came here because I was.
I like to say going into the lion's layer and, um, confronting a lot of grief and I knew that it would be a, a very difficult experience to step into this grief and loss collectively speaking. And then on the other side of that, I met my partner here. Mm-hmm. And so it was kind of like the scales of, of the universe.
I don't know. It it, it was a very interesting, um, way of, of it all going down. And so, yeah. So that's how I'm here now. And what happened was I would come here probably every five to 10 years to visit my family.
[00:16:56] Paul: Mm.
[00:16:56] Lillian: And now because I am in a relationship with an Israeli person, it's like, like I said, woven into our lives.
You know, I've got a home here and I've got a home in LA and we do the digital nomad thing, and yeah, that's our life. And so I was actually here, I was coming to visit. I was coming to meet his family. Um, there was a Jewish holiday called Sukkot. That was actually a couple weeks ago. And his favorite holiday, he was very excited to have me come meet his family under the Suka.
And then a week later, it was October 7th.
[00:17:30] Paul: Hmm.
[00:17:31] Lillian: And I was here for, oh, up until January. So I think a little over three months. And I kind of felt during that time like. I was losing my mind. I didn't really know which way was up. And of course, I, I, it was very traumatic, although I was relatively safe. I was living in a war zone.
And then. Back home. I, I, I just, I felt like I was living in the center between so many different extremes. And so trying to parse out what was real and who to believe and all of that was, was very difficult.
Finding Solidarity and Community Support
[00:18:07] Lillian: And then we spoke about this group standing together. It is a solidarity group of, uh, Jews and Palestinians.
And so I found them. And I protested with them, you know, and I was navigating language barriers. And then eventually I came back to LA and I found that they had an LA chapter. And so they have been one of, one of the lifelines, I would say, throughout this whole process in the last two plus years.
[00:18:38] Paul: Yeah, I was really, I, I was curious to ask you more about this organization, but before I do, I just wanna acknowledge, I mean, you just named so many intense,
[00:18:47] Lillian: Just give you a lot. Sorry for that. Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:50] Paul: Whew. So many like, just intense. Uh, yeah, I know. Juxtapositions, I mean, talking about losing your father, but then meeting your now fiance. Yeah. Going to Israel right before. The horrific events of of October 7th, and just that senseless yes. Slaughter of so many innocent people.
That of course, has led to so much more senseless slaughter.
Yes.
Of so many innocent people. Uh,
[00:19:25] Lillian: The continuation of that and the light on, uh, all of the injustice that led up to that point as well, that I think so many of us were, were unaware of. And of course that speaks to, to our privilege. And yeah, I mean, it's all very messy and unfortunate to say the least.
Yeah,
Therapists and Political Activism
[00:19:46] Paul: I'm, I'm particularly, and again, I wanna hear more about standing together, but I'm, I'm. Particularly interested in this sort of. You know, because in, in some ways it, it's kind of controversial, especially in the therapy world to be, uh, not only active politically, but to be transparent about one's politics, one's values.
Right. Kind of what we believe in. There are certain, uh, parts of our field that say that has no, there's no room for that in. In the therapy room. Right. That a therapist should not share any. Anything personal, any, any beliefs, any values, um,
[00:20:27] Lillian: Blank slate approach? Totally. Mm-hmm.
[00:20:30] Paul: Um, and obviously, I mean, we're here in the same, in the same space.
Dunno that I think one of the reasons we were smitten, uh, right when we, when we first spoke over five years ago is because I think we, we share the, uh, kind of a firm belief that actually a therapist, um, it, it's our, it's our duty to. To uphold our values, to, uh, to not only stand for things, but to be transparent about what we stand for.
The Impact of Systemic Issues on Mental Health
[00:21:02] Lillian: Absolutely. And I, as you're talking about it, I'm just thinking about how invalidating it can be to, let's say, experience anxiety and depression as an American. Um, and have that be. Judged or pathologized or not, not have the, the broader picture taken into context. Um, and I think so much of what I try and do is to like mirror what a client is going through and show them, Hey, you're not the problem.
You're just living in a system that maybe doesn't always see you or is broken or has all of these. Cracks, uh, with regard to like medical insurance, I'm thinking of one of many things right now, um, and how that can be so harmful.
[00:21:56] Paul: Absolutely.
[00:21:57] Lillian: I think many clients are made to feel like, oh, hey, that's a you problem.
You know, you gotta sort yourself out.
Recontextualizing Personal Struggles
[00:22:02] Lillian: And I mean, we, we can't ignore, uh, the system that we live in.
[00:22:09] Paul: Right, right. Well, I think that's, uh. That I think what you're describing is the sort of the, the outcome of when, uh, when we don't talk about the systems right? Then folks are left to, um, to feel that whatever they're experiencing is, is due to some kind of internal factors.
And if I am feeling, if, if, you know, if I'm depressed or I feel anxious with some regularity, uh, it's because there's something wrong. With me.
[00:22:41] Lillian: Yeah. Inherently.
[00:22:42] Paul: Yeah.
[00:22:42] Lillian: Right.
[00:22:43] Paul: Or there's, it's, it's on me to fix, it's on me to fix what's wrong inside of me. Um, and once I do that,
[00:22:50] Lillian: Pull myself up on my bootstraps, which is like, it's, it's not how it has to be.
[00:22:55] Paul: Right, right. Yeah. And I think recontextualizing for folks that what they're experiencing can often be a, a perfectly reasonable response to an environment that is, uh. Fucked up.
[00:23:11] Lillian: Yeah.
The Role of Social Media in Amplifying Suffering
[00:23:13] Lillian: Experiencing so much suffering and now, uh, in a way that is amplified in terms of our relationships with our phones and social media and how much access we have to this, everything everywhere.
All at once, sort of accessibility.
[00:23:32] Paul: Yeah.
Introduction to Standing Together
[00:23:34] Paul: Um, so I, I do, I really want to hear about this, uh, a little bit more about, 'cause I've, I've heard about this organization and we've done some, um, um, some work with, uh, other, uh, organizations in LA um, like if, If Not Now is one of them, that's all. Um, yeah. Where right.
That, that has sort of is catalyzing. Kind of bringing together Jews who, um, are essentially for peace, right? Yeah. Rather than for, um, revenge.
[00:24:06] Lillian: Right? Absolutely. Um, and yeah,
[00:24:08] Paul: So I, I'd love to hear more about Standing Together 'cause that's, uh,
[00:24:11] Lillian: Sure. Yeah. I'm happy to, to talk about them.
Finding a Safe Space for Activism
[00:24:14] Lillian: I, 'cause I really feel like, I, like I said, I felt, I felt like a crazy person and I felt that this, I felt.
Okay. I, I don't, I don't belong over here with my more conservative family members that have these very, uh, extreme views. And then where I thought I belonged with certain friends, I, I was starting to feel shunned and starting to feel excluded of things. And I think there were certain, uh, communication maybe blocks for some people.
Some, some people had said like. It's very difficult for me to confront this with you. And so they chose not to, um, which was unfortunate. And so I, I found myself kind of lost as, as like a left-leaning, um, individual. And so once I found this group that valued Palestinian lives as well as Jewish lives and could hold empathy for both individuals while also holding like the, the government's.
Accountable in terms of, I don't know if it's, it's fair to say holding governments accountable, but at least recognizing the faults and organizing demonstrations. So that was everything to me because I was able to find my place and make sense of things and also exist in a space that was, was safe for me to unlearn things like I think that's a really important, uh.
Component to discuss.
The Importance of Addressing Biases
[00:25:51] Lillian: We, I think that people sometimes, um, try to, to act like they're not biased, but we're all human beings and it's so mm-hmm. Women to, to hold biases. And so, I mean, Paul, like I know that this is part of your work too. In my master's program in therapy school, uh, we worked to reveal our biases to, to kind of like befriend them, you know, so rather than having shame about them, like that's just really peel away the layer and, and see.
Where we're biased and where we have work to do so that we know and so that we can pursue consultation and so on and so forth. And so I think for me realizing, oh, I had been fed this sort of narrative that I'm realizing is all a lie. Like that's work that's also quite earth shattering too. Um, and I think that is not nothing.
You know, I, I think that on social media things are so polarized and it's either you, you're, you're with us or against us and Right. I mean, where is the room for growth there? Yeah. So that's a very, that's a very hard thing. I think just as a. Living human being to witness time and time again. That kind of thing makes me feel like you guys, this is what the extremists want.
They, they want us to be at odds with each other, you know? And so, sorry, I, I digress Standing Together I, I, I love so much because we are in solidarity with one another as Jews and Palestinians, uh, working together towards this cause. And so the, the LA chapter, it's sort of like LA supporters of Standing Together, Standing Together is on the ground here in Israel Palestine.
Mm-hmm. And actually, so I've been here about. Nearly two and a half weeks. And today I was in my WhatsApp trying to find the English speakers so that I could go to the, they call it the purple house. So standing together, it's, it's, um, like purple and, and white. And so they've got the purple house and that's where the, I guess it's like the activist headquarters.
So I'm trying to figure out how to, to get in touch with them so that I can start working with them. Because I mean, otherwise being here, it's just very easy to fall into this. Bubble, and that's not what I'm trying to do ever. Hmm. So, I, I think on the ground in LA what was very helpful was meeting with people in standing together, having our zooms, having our gatherings, having our team building, and then demonstrations we would do.
And then I offered a number of, uh, free support groups as well 'cause it's, it's also. I think it's important to take into consideration what kind of activism we can contribute and with regard to our skill sets as well. Therapy is something that I know how to do quite well. Um, if I can pat myself on the back, so
[00:28:58] Paul: Please do.
[00:28:59] Lillian: I felt, you know, besides demonstrations and protests, you know, that's wonderful and also people need to talk about their feelings and release some rage and have a safe space to. Unlearn things just like everyone else does.
[00:29:15] Paul: Yeah. I think there's so much
[00:29:17] Lillian: So I love them so much. Sorry to interrupt. Go ahead.
[00:29:20] Paul: No, no, no. I just, I, I think you just shared so much and there, I think there's so much there. Um, uh, I think we really need, and it's, I mean, it sounds like a wonderful organization. I think any, any organizations that promote, uh, a more complex perspective. Um, are so needed right now.
The Complexity of Human Behavior and Trauma
[00:29:44] Paul: Um, because I think what you're, just in part, I think what you were describing is what happens as a result of trauma and collective trauma, um, is that it actually really limits when, when we are traumatized, our capacity for complexity becomes incredibly limited.
[00:30:02] Lillian: Yeah.
[00:30:03] Paul: Right? And so it becomes right and wrong. Good and good and evil. Right. These, these really intense black and white narratives that, um, in a lot of ways, dehumanize, uh, everyone
involved.
[00:30:18] Lillian: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:30:21] Paul: Right. Yeah. And
[00:30:22] Lillian: I'm so glad that you use that terminology because I say that, and I think that not everyone has that context about trauma and how it can just like, turn off your.
I, I wanna say prefrontal cortex, like you're not really able to do critical thinking if you are feeling a threat. And so I see a lot of ignorance being a product of trauma. I don't wanna justify any important behavior. And also I think that I, I, I remember being, you know, a college kid and. Seeing certain biases.
In my father, for example, I was, I was dating someone outside of our culture. Mm-hmm. And he, it was very hard for him.
[00:31:08] Paul: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:08] Lillian: And I sort of just was like, I can't believe this. You're, you're racist. You know? And I just, and sure, like there was racist behavior going on. And also I have this context now of, wow, you are, you were an Iranian Jewish person.
[00:31:27] Paul: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:28] Lillian: You got beat up all the time. No one wanted to go into the river because they said that there's this dirty Jew in the water. Sorry guys. Trigger warning.
[00:31:37] Paul: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:37] Lillian: Um, and, and like this is the context you grew up in,
[00:31:41] Paul: Right
[00:31:41] Lillian: And how can I ignore that? So, yeah, I mean, I do think that nuance is important of, of course, I don't wanna justify again, any important behavior.
And also I think that it's important to talk to people that are different than us so that we can try and understand,
[00:32:03] Paul: Right. And I don't think it's justifying, I think it's contextualizing right that, uh, that certainly human behavior is born. Uh, certainly there's, there's just some elements of human nature that make it right.
That, that we can, or oppressive, right? We can, we can be, yeah, we can be warlike, right? That's a part of, that's a part of our biology. Um, and, um, at the same time we've seen that, uh. Communities can act that human beings can also be kind and warm and loving, um, and, and have the ability and capacity to hold complexity.
But when, um, when entire communities or societies are traumatized, it becomes incredibly, uh, incredibly difficult to do so. So any kind of actis activism work and organizations that, that bring people together, and I think like what you were saying about. Using your skillset as a therapist, right, to, um, to hold space for groups, for communities to create space for grief, um, uh, I, I think is essential to, to, to moving forward.
[00:33:22] Lillian: Because I think Paul, the last thing we want is to be siloed off and not in communication with one another. I think that just gives rise to more extremism that just makes the the extremists heels dig in further into their beliefs. See, this is why we need to have a unjust, bureaucratic. System. Right. Um, yeah.
Yeah. So it, it really, I, I find it very unfortunate. Of course, it makes sense given the rise of social media. It's very easy for people to, you know, have this like sudden courage behind their screens. I, I feel like it's a false sense of self. Um, I think that. Half the time, if we had those conversations, heart to heart person to person, we would have a wealth of, you know, nonverbal communication, for example.
Mm-hmm. And I, it, it wouldn't be as intense. I, I would like to believe that,
[00:34:34] Paul: Uh, I mean that's, that's certainly my hope. I mean, it's, look, it's. I by no means want to, to paint a picture that it, this is simple or easy because quite the opposite. It's actually incredibly difficult. It's incredibly complex.
And, um, to, to make the decision to sit in that complexity is the much more challenging choice. It's gonna be more difficult to do that.
[00:35:00] Lillian: Yes. Yes.
[00:35:01] Paul: Rather, rather than kind of really firmly standing in one place and being like, you are wrong. You're bad.
[00:35:09] Lillian: It would be so easy to do that. And yeah, I don't think that's representative of the, the complex, the complexity of human beings in our experiences.
[00:35:21] Paul: Yeah. Well, I mean, obviously I, I think we could talk about this for a really long, there, there's just so much here and we could talk about this for a really long time, and I'm aware of
[00:35:32] Lillian: Right.
[00:35:33] Paul: Time.
[00:35:33] Lillian: Time.
[00:35:34] Paul: You know, time. Yeah. The constant.
[00:35:37] Lillian: That that whole thing.
[00:35:38] Paul: That whole thing. Yeah.
Looking Ahead: Personal and Collective Futures
[00:35:39] Paul: Um, but I, maybe we can just shift the conversation briefly before we wrap up on, um, the future.
Like, looking ahead, uh, obviously you are looking ahead to a wedding that's very exciting. Um, I think we need, right, we, uh, we need to, to be able to celebrate. That is such a, uh, an active, like, such a powerful way of resisting the, the intensity and the, and, and the grief and the pain all around us to, to kind of harness that human capacity to experience joy and celebration. We did that in Los Angeles on uh, just, uh, on Saturday night when our Dodgers won the World Series. That was really
[00:36:26] Lillian: Oh, right. Yes.
[00:36:29] Paul: It was so nice to, to judge right. To care about something. That was really, in the grand scheme of things, is relatively meaningless. Uh, but so important for right.
For, for a community to,
[00:36:42] Lillian: It's a, it's a whole world out there, Paul, that I am completely unaware of. But I know that it was a very big deal and I'm happy for all of the, the baseball fans. Yeah. Who are into this.
[00:36:54] Paul: Well, especially in the streets of Los Angeles that have been just ravaged by ICE raids over the past several months.
[00:37:00] Lillian: Oh gosh. Of course.
[00:37:00] Paul: Um, to get, to, to, to get to. Experience joy and, and celebration is just so important. Um, yeah. So, so you are looking forward to to that, but I, yeah. I'm curious kind of what, um. What's next for you?
[00:37:17] Lillian: Yeah, it, it's a good point that you make. I was trying on wedding dresses some months ago and I sent, uh, some pictures to some, some best friends from college, and one of them said to me, wow, thank you for sending me this. I forgot what it felt like to be excited about something.
[00:37:37] Paul: Mm.
[00:37:37] Lillian: And. I think that it's a really important point that you make. And I think sometimes I, I, I even struggle with it. Like, I'm like, wow, how can I be planning a wedding while so many people are suffering? And also this is like part of life. It's just a constant cycle of death and rebirth and sadness and joy and, um, it's pretty wild.
And I think it's important to make room for all of the, the feelings. Um. So what's next for me? Yes. I, I mean, we, we are continuing to look at wedding venues. We are planning our wedding. That's very exciting. And I think beyond that, I'm not really sure, continuing to write and see my clients. And, uh, we might go back to Thailand after the wedding, but it's all, it's all up in the air.
But continuing this digital nomad life that we've got and trying to remain centered and find our groove together wherever we, we go, wherever we are. And I think that's enough. Like that's, that's a lot, that's a lot of big life changes already. So I'm, I'm here for now and it's nice to be with my partner and our dog and even like the, the chill moments on the couch are the best and.
Yeah. It, it doesn't have to be anything crazy. It doesn't have to be getting on a flight somewhere. Um, so, so even those small moments, I'm, I'm looking forward to just normalcy and, and routine or I. It's so funny, like this is how, you know, I'm, I'm in my thirties. I'm so excited about normalcy and routine.
[00:39:22] Paul: I, I really resonate with that.
Yeah. Even though, even though I'm, I'm now, uh, I recently joined the, uh, the 40 club and, uh, but more and more, yeah, I'm appreciating those little quiet. Moments, even sometimes in the morning. You know, it was never, never a morning person when I was younger and now I wake up a little bit earlier sometimes.
It's just nice to experience the calm.
[00:39:47] Lillian: Yeah.
[00:39:47] Paul: In the morning.
[00:39:49] Lillian: Do you have calm with all those cats at your house Paul?
[00:39:52] Paul: That is a really good question. 'cause as I, as those words were coming out of my mouth, I, I was imagining all of the cats swirling around my legs going, meow, feed me, feed me, meow. But there's a little bit of calm after, after they're fed.
[00:40:08] Lillian: And animals can be super grounding. I can, I can definitely attest to that.
[00:40:12] Paul: Oh,
[00:40:12] Lillian: The cuddles are, wow.
[00:40:14] Paul: The cuddles are real. They're so important. Just the other day we were. Uh, uh, Kaitlin and I were on the couch, uh, surrounded by all of the, all of the fur balls and watching some episode of some TV show, probably the third or fourth one that we'd watched in that sitting.
And she turned to me and she's like, are we boring? And,
and I was like, are you kidding me? This is, this, is it I, I think we've made it. This is, um, obviously there's a time and a place to do stuff and yeah, to be able to appreciate, um, that we have a cozy place to land, um, and with a, a bunch of cozy creatures to land there with us and just to experience that gratitude and appreciation for, um, what we've got.
Because,
[00:41:11] Lillian: Yeah.
[00:41:11] Paul: Cause as we've been, I mean, as we've been talking about, I mean, there's so much, so much going on and so many folks don't have access to those moments of peace.
[00:41:20] Lillian: Right. Physical and emotional safety.
[00:41:23] Paul: Yeah.
[00:41:24] Lillian: Yeah. Totally.
Final Thoughts and Farewell
[00:41:26] Paul: Um, well, I, I just wanna say thank you so much as, as we move toward wrapping up, uh, for having this conversation with me.
[00:41:36] Lillian: Of course. Well, it's always a delight to hang with the Kindmans. I'll always remember feeling smitten
[00:41:44] Paul: Yeah. And I hope, I hope you reach out when, if you, if and when you do find yourself back, back in LA, maybe we can meet up at that coffee shop.
[00:41:52] Lillian: That would be so fun. Full circle.
Thank you so much, Paul.
[00:41:58] Paul: Yeah. Thanks for telling your story and, and for talking about Standing Together. I think we'll, we'll provide a little bit more information about this organization for folks if, if they wanna get involved.
[00:42:08] Lillian: Beautiful. It's important.
[00:42:10] Paul: Okay, Lillian. Okay, well good luck planning this wedding.
[00:42:16] Lillian: Thank you.
[00:42:17] Paul: Enjoy. Bye.
[00:42:22] Lillian: Bye.
bringing you to
Today's episode is bringing you to Standing Together. This is the organization that Lillian refers to several times throughout the conversation. They are a progressive grassroots movement, organizing Jewish and Palestinian citizens of Israel against the occupation and for peace, equality, and social justice.
You can view their website at standing-together.org. As always, you can find the full transcript of the episode on our blog and sign up for our newsletter to stay connected. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.
Featured therapist author:
Paul Kindman, LMFT is the co-founder of Kindman & Co, an immigrant, refugee and acculturated American. He loves working with couples, partners and multicultural relationships who are navigating unique challenges of honoring many belief systems and traditions within relationships and families.
Lillian Farzan, LMFT, has a strong commitment to supporting marginalized communities. She has dedicated her career to providing inclusive therapy. Her practice focuses on the needs of first-generation individuals, people of colour (POC), and the LGBTQ+ community. Through her private practice, she has created a safe and welcoming space for clients to navigate challenges related to intersectionality, social injustice, racism, and other systemic issues.
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