On the Podcast: De-Stigmatizing Everything: What a Queer Wellness Festival Taught Us About Belonging
episode summary
In this episode of ‘Out of Session’ by Kindman and Co., hosts Liz and Logan get into what it really felt like to spend a weekend in the desert surrounded by queer community, why spaces like Know Other Festival matter more than ever right now, how the experience of seeing all kinds of bodies just existing freely can quietly shift something inside you, and what it brings up when even in the most welcoming spaces, you still find yourself wondering — do I belong here?
[00:00:39] Liz: All right. We're live, or we're not live. We're recording.
[00:00:46] Logan: Just feels like something you're supposed to say when you're
[00:00:49] Liz: No, that felt right. That felt so right.
[00:00:52] Logan: But anyways.
[00:00:55] Liz: Well, my name is Liz
[00:00:58] Logan: and my name's Logan.
[00:01:00] Liz: And we're Out of Session. A Feelings Forward podcast of organized yet messy conversations about being human.
What Is Know Other Festival
[00:01:08] Liz: Today's topic is
[00:01:11] Logan: just some little old reflections on Liz's and my time at Know Other Festival this year. Know Other Festival is a yearly queer wellness and camping experience rooted in healing, joy, and self-expression.
[00:01:28] Liz: Amazing.
[00:01:29] Logan: Amazing.
[00:01:30] Liz: Gorgeous.
[00:01:31] Logan: So today we'll be talking about some of the experiences we've had.
Liz and I were both volunteering as mental health specialists at Know Other Festival, just being around being available to support some of the attendees. So we got to be a part of that side, but also experience some of the festivals, some of the workshops ourselves.
[00:01:55] Liz: Yeah. Yeah.
A little.
The best of both worlds, if you will.
[00:02:01] Logan: Absolutely.
[00:02:05] Liz: And more and more. So we'll, we'll be taking some time to reflect on our experiences and what came up for us and what we noticed.
[00:02:18] Logan: What we noticed.
Liz First Festival Takeaways
[00:02:20] Logan: We will just start off, what was your experience like? How this was your first time at Know Other Festival?
[00:02:28] Liz: Mm-hmm.
[00:02:28] Logan: How was it?
[00:02:31] Liz: Oh my goodness. There's so much to it.
I feel like I left feeling like this sense of rejuvenation. I think just like being out in the desert with a bunch of queer folks was really rejuvenating. And on the other side too, because we were working, I definitely was tired. I, you know, coming back, I think I slept for 24 hours.
[00:03:03] Logan: That's amazing. I am, I'm impressed and I'm envious.
[00:03:08] Liz: We gotta get you in hibernation.
[00:03:11] Logan: Coming soon, folks. Um,
[00:03:13] Liz: Logan celebration coming to asleep near you? What?
[00:03:19] Logan: Near me? Um, yeah, definitely spiritually rejuvenating.
[00:03:26] Liz: Yeah.
Desert Survival Sunscreen
[00:03:27] Logan: Physically I am learning that at my ripe old age, I do love comfort.
[00:03:35] Liz: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:37] Logan: Um. And my skin not to feel like sandpaper. Yes. But, um, you know, there's some trade, just the trade offs of getting to go be free in the desert with the queers.
[00:03:49] Liz: Yeah, absolutely. It, it means that your skin will feel like burning sandpaper, but you're also frolicking amongst all these queers.
[00:04:04] Logan: Yes. I think it, it doesn't. Need to, but only if you are cocky about your, um, skincare and sun sunburn game. So.
[00:04:20] Liz: Should we, next year we'll bring a tub of sunscreen and. A tub of lotion?
[00:04:29] Logan: We probably should.
[00:04:30] Liz: We definitely should.
[00:04:31] Logan: We probably should.
[00:04:32] Liz: I thought my hands were gonna fall off at the end.
[00:04:34] Logan: Did they?
[00:04:36] Liz: They could've. We'll, we'll find out. But are your feeling better?
[00:04:45] Logan: Mine are feeling better and looking real rough. I don't know if you are seeing some of these dinosaur scales on me.
[00:04:56] Liz: I can't see them from here.
Oh, thank goodness. We'll have to No, that you're, no, and I, I feel that, were you getting the sun poisoning spots a little bit on your hands? Like, I was like the blisters.
[00:05:08] Logan: This is the first time I've heard of sun poisoning.
[00:05:11] Liz: Yeah. Oh.
[00:05:12] Logan: Um, so I'm not sure, but I'm sorry that something happened to you.
[00:05:18] Liz: No, my hands are okay now.
[00:05:20] Logan: Okay.
[00:05:20] Liz: Just a lot of sun. A lot of sun.
Logan Second Year Highlights
[00:05:23] Liz: I'm curious, Logan, how was your second trip to Know Other Festival? How was it? Oh my God. What were your thoughts?
[00:05:31] Logan: It was, it was great. I think. Uh, we were at a different location last year, so it was interesting to just settle into something new.
Mm.
Um, but I think my favorite part was getting to see people that I met last year.
[00:05:46] Liz: Mm.
[00:05:47] Logan: Um, some of the friends that I made and running into them making new friends. I don't know if everyone that I said hello again to remembered me, and if they didn't, they played it off very well and I'm fine with that. Um, but it was really special 'cause people come from all over. Mm-hmm. Um, people are coming from other states and, um, crossing oceans to, to come to this festival.
So it's always nice to see folks.
Community Care In Action
[00:06:12] Logan: Definitely didn't bring enough sunscreen, but, um, the, I think one of the really cool things about this festival is how much people are looking out for each other.
[00:06:20] Liz: Yeah.
[00:06:21] Logan: Um, there was all, there was all those different, you know. Sunscreens and chapsticks and people put out soap samples and whatnot, um, to share with everybody.
And I know, I think we were, everybody was helping everybody put their tents together.
[00:06:37] Liz: Yeah.
[00:06:38] Logan: And I think the biggest show of community care was I have never seen Porta-Potties stay that clean. And smell so good.
[00:06:50] Liz: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:50] Logan: Out in the hot desert sun.
[00:06:52] Liz: Yeah.
[00:06:53] Logan: Over, I mean, I'm sure those were there for like at least a week because people got there early.
[00:06:57] Liz: Yeah.
Yeah, that, that is so interesting. You pointed that out. You were so right. That is so interesting. Just the way that even that care showed up when it came down to the porta-potties.
[00:07:11] Logan: Where it counts.
[00:07:13] Liz: Yeah.
[00:07:13] Logan: Some may say.
[00:07:15] Liz: Where it counts the most. Yeah, absolutely. I love that you brought that up. I didn't even, I mean, I kept walking to the porta potties being like.
Wow. It smells like nice in here. That's crazy to say, well, normally you brace for impact, and I'm like, it's clean. It is like, wow. Yeah. Okay, I digress. I love that you brought that in.
[00:07:40] Logan: It does feel strange to say it smelled nice in there, but it did smell nice.
[00:07:43] Liz: It did.
[00:07:45] Logan: Things were nice and tidy.
[00:07:47] Liz: Yeah.
Free Chicken Moment
[00:07:47] Logan: What, um, what stood out to you about this festival this weekend?
[00:07:52] Liz: Well, actually going off the care thing, I love that you brought that up because I don't think I told you this, but after my shift in the clinic, I was walking back and I was like. Um, I was definitely hangry at that point. I was ready to eat and this group of folks came up to me and they were like, free chicken.
It was a tub of chicken. They were like, free chicken, take free protein, protein hits, take all the protein you need. And they just handed me, they were like, just take as much as you need. And I just. Picked in front of them out of the tub of chicken for probably like five minutes. And that I feel like such a demonstration of like collective care, like everyone making sure that their tents were up well, that everyone was fed, everyone was sun screened, um, like well rested.
I don't know. I, that was something, I'm so glad you brought that up because I think that was. So constant throughout the whole weekend.
Just like everyone looking out for each other. Here's water, here's electrolytes. Um, that felt really special. I've never been in a space like that.
[00:09:13] Logan: I know, I mean, I heard some other people offering their food too, and, but I did not know about the, these.
The, the, the chicken gods were shining down.
[00:09:26] Liz: The chicken gods shined down and it was great chicken Logan.
[00:09:30] Logan: What kind of chicken was it? I'm curious.
[00:09:33] Liz: It was some sort of yummy, seasoned, like chopped up chicken. It wasn't like a rotisserie, but it was like maybe a chicken thigh with some really nice seasonings.
[00:09:48] Logan: Ooh, like a roasted situation?
[00:09:51] Liz: Yeah, I think so. Or grilled.
[00:09:54] Logan: Ooh.
[00:09:55] Liz: Grilled. There were some like nice grill marks.
[00:09:59] Logan: I love, I love a nice grill mark.
[00:10:01] Liz: Oh, you would? I wonder where you were. It was actually, I was eating it right near your tent.
[00:10:07] Logan: Oh, I think it was at the comedy show.
[00:10:11] Liz: Oh, you were,
[00:10:12] Logan: I was, I
[00:10:12] Liz: You were, you
were.
Comedy Show And Feels
[00:10:13] Logan: I was like strategically trying to be at that.
[00:10:15] Liz: Yeah. Did you like that?
[00:10:17] Logan: I loved it. It was, oh my God, it was so much fun.
[00:10:19] Liz: Wait, did you see, did you catch the whole thing? Like from the beginning?
[00:10:24] Logan: Almost the whole thing. I stepped away a few times to go to those amazing porta-potties we talked about already, about those porta-potties.
And there were a few parts that I couldn't hear from. Because there was also some music playing. Um, it was great. I went and followed some people. They followed me back. I was like, ah.
[00:10:42] Liz: Oh my gosh. Ah, I'm sad I missed. Well, I did catch that one with y'all.
[00:10:48] Logan: Mm, the last one.
[00:10:50] Liz: Oh, I love that one. That was beautiful.
[00:10:52] Logan: That one low key, like got me in my feels. I was like feeling some tears coming into my eyes and then was like, suck 'em back. Suck 'em back.
[00:11:05] Liz: Well, I was right there with you. Maybe we could have cried together.
[00:11:09] Logan: Man.
[00:11:10] Liz: It was so beautiful.
[00:11:11] Logan: It was, it was.
[00:11:14] Liz: Mm.
[00:11:14] Logan: There was so much, um, vulnerability.
[00:11:18] Liz: Yeah.
[00:11:18] Logan: At this festival.
Um, I mean the, um, talent, what, what do we call the, the, the, yeah, the artist
[00:11:28] Liz: talent,
[00:11:28] Logan: artist
[00:11:29] Liz: performance
[00:11:29] Logan: we're talking about. Um, which is really a beautiful story about this person's own experiences. And just the way that they told and shared this part of themselves with us felt really, um, moving.
[00:11:49] Liz: So moving, like so vulnerable, authentic, which I guess was like
another aspect I so appreciated about Know Other Festival was just like how real everyone was.
[00:12:07] Logan: Mm.
[00:12:08] Liz: Like it was no, I don't know. I just feel like you could show up as yourself authentically and be celebrated in that, like in all of all of the things that you bring to the table. Like in that moment I was looking around and seeing just how emotional everyone else was in the crowd listening to that story and the comedy show.
And I'm sure like all of us, like having resonant moments and, and, and that story we were listening to. I don't know. It was just like the space of like celebration of our unique idiosyncrasies and experiences.
[00:12:53] Logan: And then some commiserating. Of course.
[00:12:56] Liz: Yeah.
Realness Outside Norms
[00:12:57] Logan: And I really wanna emphasize the realness.
[00:13:00] Liz: Yeah.
[00:13:01] Logan: Um, very real, very stripped down.
Some may say.
[00:13:07] Liz: Quite literally.
[00:13:09] Logan: Quite literally.
[00:13:11] Liz: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:12] Logan: And so there was, there was, it, was it, it felt like being at this festival was like, unmistakably, we are not in what do we wanna call the
[00:13:24] Liz: heteronormativity,
[00:13:26] Logan: heteronormativity, uh, mass society. Like it was, it was, um, just noticeably different.
[00:13:36] Liz: Yeah.
[00:13:37] Logan: Like if you teleported there and opened your eyes, you would be like, well, I'm somewhere. I'm somewhere.
[00:13:43] Liz: Yeah. I remember in fact. Like leaving the festival and going to In And Out near kind of Coachella Valley, the shock and awe I faced getting into that space after being in at No Other and being like, wow, I miss being in a space like No Other already.
[00:14:06] Logan: Mm. I can only imagine what you saw.
[00:14:12] Liz: Like that hetero, you know, the like patriarchal, capitalistic, you know, like that we existed.
[00:14:22] Logan: Yeah. Yeah. I hate that we had to leave the festival and reenter society.
[00:14:31] Liz: Yeah.
Accessibility Consent Nudity
[00:14:31] Liz: I'm curious your thoughts on being in a space that, like the setting that we were in, how it, how it kind of challenged all these maybe sys intersecting systems.
[00:14:47] Logan: Mm.
Yeah, I really, um, I really appreciate the, appreciated the, like care that was taken to hold everybody in their different experiences. Of course this was a queer festival, but beyond that, something that I really appreciated was the, support around, folks who might have needed accommodations. Right? There were, um, workshops all around disability. There was, a lot of efforts made to make it really accessible, really inclusive.
I appreciated that there was space to show up in many different ways people could be like we referenced, um, just fully nude. And I think in some ways I heard in the comedy set, one person kind of was referring to that as like. In terms of the safety and the kinda understanding of consent that it took to be able to do that.
Mm-hmm. And then some people, I mean, I, you know me, I'm a shirt pants. I was wearing my full shirt, pants, attire. Um, and that was okay too.
[00:16:10] Liz: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:11] Logan: It didn't feel like there was a pressure to, uh, show up any kind of way. I have now forgotten your question, but I've rambled a little bit.
[00:16:21] Liz: No, I love it. I think that perfectly reflected my question of what your thoughts were about like being in this, in this space.
[00:16:33] Logan: What were, may I ask, what thoughts you had or what came up for you?
[00:16:38] Liz: I feel like, yeah, that something about, um. It was really beautiful how inclusive, the space was and just like how, um, how much thought was put into making it as accessible as possible in a desert environment. The last workshop that I sat in, uh, as like a mental health support was on disability. Um, and so, and that was the last day. So like hearing everyone reflect, on their experience being in an environment where like it was so inclusive, like the effort that was put in, and then also like the things that could be bettered for next year. Um, just making it even more accessible.
I thought that was so beautiful. I thought that was. Yeah, there was something about that that was just, wow, this space is the thought and the care that is put into every aspect of it.
Body Neutrality And Healing
[00:18:30] Liz: And then also, yeah, the, the kind of open possibility for nudity. Um, it was interesting, I think like. I think it was this really cool experience of, I don't know how to exactly say this, but like demystifying of the body, like, just kind of like taking, I think there, there can be some like nerves in, in the side of like being nude, at least on my end. I also was, um, in my overall, my overall uniform essentially the whole time. But I think it, like demystified, it was this idea of like, our bodies, our bodies, like they get us from point A to point B and we can like, kind of really brought up this like neutrality point with like body image, like.
Yeah, these are just bodies. Whatever they look like, they get us from point A to point B and we can dance and we can play and we can frolic and move or lay, whatever it may be. And I thought that was really healing personally to see. I really appreciated that. I, I was definitely shy going into it and like being there as like kind of this mental health support as well. Like, where is am I? Am I allowed to, but I also, I think it, I don't know, it brought like more comfortability in my own body.
Um, just being like, oh yeah, a body's a body. I don't know. I'm kind of rambling.
[00:19:33] Logan: No, I love it. I, I am like vibing with everything you're saying.
[00:19:38] Liz: Yeah.
[00:19:39] Logan: Um, I, I also noticed, um. Feeling, feel, feeling something, feeling this impact of bodies are bodies and they can be, they can be naked, they can be clothed. They don't have to be, they don't have to be sexualized.
[00:19:56] Liz: Mm. Mm-hmm.
[00:19:57] Logan: Um, they can be.
[00:19:59] Liz: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:59] Logan: And that's also okay.
[00:20:01] Liz: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:02] Logan: When it's consensual. Of course.
[00:20:04] Liz: Absolutely.
[00:20:05] Logan: And, um, I just feel like.
Seeing Every Body
[00:20:12] Logan: In this, in, like, I don't wanna, I keep calling, wanting to call it the real world, but I, I don't wanna imply that that wasn't real.
[00:20:19] Liz: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:19] Logan: But in, you know, outside of a place of a space like that, um, I feel like there's only, there's only certain kinds of bodies that are, I don't know, visible or seen.
Or deemed acceptable to be visible. Um, and so just being able to see all of these different kinds of bodies.
[00:20:45] Liz: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:46] Logan: Right. These different bodies with different abilities, with different, um, big bodies, small bodies and medium bodies. Mm-hmm. Bodies with scars, with top surgery, scars.
[00:20:56] Liz: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:56] Logan: Um, trans bodies.
Um, felt like even now I'm like giving myself a little goosey, remembering that. Yeah. Because, um, it just felt like, you know, oh shit. They can have a body and that's great, and maybe I can too. Um, and so it, I realized like, you know, I, I definitely have stuff with my own body. And just to get the opportunity to be in such a, an accepting place.
A safe place. I don't know. Safe place has so now means so many things.
[00:21:39] Liz: Yeah.
[00:21:39] Logan: Or not, but um, that was really cool and felt a little bit like scandal. Scandalous at first. I don't know about you.
[00:21:48] Liz: Well, you remember my,
oh yeah. I, I also have to say, when you were sharing that, I got pretty teary-eyed it, the. Uh, yeah, it's like the power of seeing all of these different bodies being embraced as just as bodies and like challenging. I mean, I think we all have some, some, like those things about our own bodies. And like being able to be in a space like that.
It's crazy.
Nudity First Reactions
[00:22:27] Liz: I just wanna say, yeah, it made me emotional hearing you say that and talk about it. 'cause I, I definitely felt similar being there and I think yeah, there was like, at first I was like, ooh, nakey,
[00:22:50] Logan: I remember we had a little check in.
[00:22:56] Liz: I was like, uh, yeah, well, and because at first it's like, oh wow, you're coming from a place, you know, you're not seeing nude bodies all the time, generally speaking, and then, and then you're coming into the space and nudity.
[00:23:14] Logan: Yeah. Were you prepared for that?
[00:23:19] Liz: Well, I anticipated it going into it.
And then I was like, oh, oh, yeah. Okay. Yes.
[00:23:30] Logan: That was perfect. That's perfectly captured.
[00:23:36] Liz: Like the, and then the, oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. You know what?
[00:23:41] Logan: You know what? Hell, yeah.
[00:23:43] Liz: Yeah. Yes, exactly. What did you, what were your thoughts? I mean, I know you also had been at the festival last year, but I know it was like a different setting.
[00:23:55] Logan: It was a little bit different. Um, it's a lot of exactly what you said that, Hmm.
Oh, right. That's very much my experience too. Um, last year there was, I think, not as much nudity because we were sharing the campground with some permanent residents.
But yeah, I definitely noticed at first like, uh, ooh, like, I'm not supposed to see this. And like, I mean, I mean of course like all of this programming of like, this is bad and this is not to be shown or to be seen and you know, like there's something wrong with it.
Like those shadows of, of that.
Why Pleasure Spaces Matter
[00:24:47] Logan: Um, and right, so I could, you know, I was, I was sharing with a friend, about the festival the other day after I came back and, you know, they were like interested in coming and I said, well, I mean, maybe I should give you the disclaimer that there's actually quite a bit of nudity, so you should just know that, you know, you may be seeing some things.
Um, and you know, I mean, I can very much understand, not very much. I mean, I can understand perspectives like, why is there nude? Why do we need to be nude or why, you know. Is there, like there were a couple of like, play areas, like the pleasure portal and the dungeon, and um, how do those connect to queerness? And in some ways I can understand like, like the initial gut reaction of like, whoa, like that's a lot. And I think too, like at a core level, queerness is really about sexual liberation. Um, period. Period. And, uh, well, you know, everyone is, uh, free to partake in what they want to.
[00:25:51] Liz: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:51] Logan: Um, and absolutely think that those things should be an option.
[00:26:00] Liz: Absolutely. Having those spaces you mean?
[00:26:03] Logan: Yeah.
[00:26:04] Liz: Yeah.
[00:26:05] Logan: What do you, what do you think?
[00:26:07] Liz: I agree.
Destigmatizing Bodies and Sex
[00:26:08] Liz: I feel like, so much of this weekend, I feel like in, at least in my own internal head, is like, it felt like a lot of, kind of like de-stigmatizing or challenging, right?
Like rhetoric, um, that may have been conditioned in. And even things that like maybe I didn't even realize existed in my head of like, Ooh, can I be naked? Like, is that inherently sexual? Like these kinds of things like, but I think what was so cool, I agree. Like queerness is all about, it's like embodying like this idea of like sexual liberation and so I think,
I mean, the thing about this festival is like if you didn't, if you don't, if you didn't wanna engage in those spaces, you didn't have to.
[00:27:02] Logan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:27:03] Liz: Um, but I think it's really important that those spaces are there because where else can you have a space like that?
[00:27:12] Logan: Mm.
[00:27:13] Liz: And really like, celebrate and, um, hold space for like whether it's kink or intimacy or nudity, like how whatever form, um, I think it was like an important aspect of the festival itself and like queerness.
[00:27:39] Logan: Yeah.
[00:27:40] Liz: I don't know if that didn't, I just rambled. Does that make sense?
[00:27:47] Logan: I think you're making sense.
[00:27:49] Liz: You think I'm making sense?
[00:27:51] Logan: Audience is making, let us know.
Making sense. Let us, let us know the comments. I think that made sense to me.
[00:27:58] Liz: Yeah.
[00:27:59] Logan: Um, yeah, I think what, like, what message would it send to not include some of these spaces?
[00:28:05] Liz: That's so real.
[00:28:07] Logan: Right?
[00:28:07] Liz: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:28:10] Logan: Like, like, to like, like to not, to not talk about sex and therapy. Sends a message, right. That this is something shameful or
[00:28:19] Liz: mm-hmm.
[00:28:19] Logan: There's a stigma or this is something we don't do.
[00:28:23] Liz: Yep.
[00:28:24] Logan: But
[00:28:25] Liz: yeah,
Queer Joy Takeaways
[00:28:26] Logan: I'm, I'm, I'm curious, um, you know, what else stood out to you or this festival or what you took from it or just kind of what you noticed coming up as you were, as you were there, or even afterwards?
[00:28:44] Liz: I feel like one of the big things was just joy.
[00:28:48] Logan: Mm.
[00:28:49] Liz: Like queer joy. That felt, I've been holding onto that tightly.
[00:28:56] Logan: Mm.
[00:28:57] Liz: That was just like all I could think about, like how inclusive and how joyful.
[00:29:06] Logan: Hmm.
[00:29:06] Liz: Like seeing everyone. Just frolicking, laughing, crying.
[00:29:13] Logan: Mm.
[00:29:13] Liz: Um, it was really like touching.
[00:29:18] Logan: Mm.
[00:29:19] Liz: And yeah, I don't know. I'm just, I feel like that's something I'm gonna hold onto.
For a long time it was just like. That joy, goodness gracious. Was that special? What about you?
[00:29:36] Logan: That that no, that was very special. I feel like, especially now.
[00:29:41] Liz: Oh my God. Yeah.
[00:29:42] Logan: We need a little joy. Look for joy in our lives. We all do.
[00:29:46] Liz: We sure do.
[00:29:47] Logan: Even the heteros please.
[00:29:52] Liz: Get a little queer joy in your life.
[00:29:55] Logan: It's great. If you can, if you can. If you can get some, get you some. Yeah. It's so
[00:30:02] Liz: beautiful.
[00:30:03] Logan: It was beautiful. It was, it was.
Am I Queer Enough
[00:30:05] Logan: Um, it was, I felt that, and also I was a little, I don't know if I was surprised, maybe I wasn't. But um, I also noticed like feeling very reserved and a little shy. And I notice this part of me that comes up that's like, that asks, but am I queer enough?
[00:30:26] Liz: Mm. I feel that.
[00:30:29] Logan: Do you feel that?
[00:30:30] Liz: I feel that. Very, yeah. Very much.
[00:30:32] Logan: Did. Did you feel any of that during the festival?
[00:30:35] Liz: Totally. So much. Yeah. I think being someone like, I mean, I've been out for, hmm. Probably like seven, eight years now. But being pansexual, I, it, I did, it did come up of like, am I queer enough?
Oh my goodness, am I, am I, you know, queer enough, kinky enough? Like, yeah, that definitely came up. How, what about you? How did it show up for you?
[00:31:14] Logan: Um, I was very similarly and I noticed, like when I hear someone else, like when I hear you say that. Like my heart, like lurches forward and I wanna like shake you and say, of course you are queer enough.
Mm-hmm. Um, and I also know how sometimes voices project loudest to other people, but don't always come back to us.
[00:31:34] Liz: Oh, I love that. That was beautiful, Logan.
[00:31:37] Logan: Thank you. I just, off the dome really? That was off the dome. If I were to go back, I would maybe phrase it a little bit better, but, um,
[00:31:48] Liz: oh, I like that.
[00:31:49] Logan: I, I feel that, and I, I've been out for just about 10 years now, which is like, I wouldn't consider myself a baby gay, and I don't think many people would.
And like to still be feeling this am I queer enough? Am I trans enough? All of these things, um, at a queer festival. Where we've been asked to attend and volunteer and support folks. Like we're very much, we, I think it's clear. We're welcome. Um, and, and it also makes me think of like people who are still figuring things out. Yeah. Or exploring or much earlier on those journeys.
[00:32:34] Liz: Like our questioning folks.
[00:32:37] Logan: Yeah.
[00:32:37] Liz: Yeah. Coming, stepping into their queerness.
[00:32:41] Logan: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:41] Liz: Folks stepping into their yeah, absolutely.
[00:32:44] Logan: And it's like how, how safe does that feel to do if even us at, I'd say we're elementary age queer.
If we're not baby gays, right. Before
[00:33:00] Liz: Yeah. We're in elementary. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:33:03] Logan: That what that must be like.
Belonging and Internalized Narratives
[00:33:06] Logan: I remember like looking, wanting, being curious about the, the pleasure portal. Um mm-hmm. But almost feeling like, ooh, is it like, if I'm not sure how much I want to participate to be curious, is there something like you know, voyeuristic about that.
[00:33:23] Liz: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:23] Logan: Do I belong here if I'm not sure.
[00:33:26] Liz: Yeah.
[00:33:27] Logan: Um, and.
[00:33:28] Liz: Well, and I too, I'm thinking too, like I'm sure even a voyeuristic aspect would be welcome. And I also like, I just like on the side of like whatever, like highlighting how accepting and like how open, but then also the barriers and, and kind of, exploring as you're like, is this, do I fit in this space? Is this the right space? Is it I'm
[00:33:58] Logan: allowed?
[00:33:59] Liz: Yeah. Am
[00:34:00] Logan: I allowed?
[00:34:01] Liz: Can I, can I, can I check it out? What's happening in here? I know,
[00:34:06] Logan: I know. And it's so, it's almost like, it almost feels silly because it makes me think of how. I don't know. I guess I was gonna say, oh, straight people probably don't have to think about it.
Am I straight enough? But, um mm-hmm. I think there is a lot maybe to be said about like masculinity
[00:34:26] Liz: mm-hmm.
[00:34:27] Logan: And the ticket price of certain straight experiences too. And identities. Mm-hmm. Um, I don't wanna like, hold some space for that.
[00:34:37] Liz: Yeah.
[00:34:37] Logan: But, um, it does feel like there needs to be a lot more evidence to feel confident in being queer for some people.
[00:34:52] Liz: Yeah. Like identifying.
[00:34:54] Logan: Yeah. Whether that's like having a certain number of like, sexual experiences of this kind. Or, um, having this many friends or being involved in these communities that are queer or, um, the relationship that you're in at any certain time.
Like,
[00:35:09] Liz: yeah.
[00:35:09] Logan: All these things have their ways of worming in and like, um, invalidating.
[00:35:15] Liz: Absolutely. Like having a list to be like, no, see, I'm like valid. Like I noticed that in me being like, what is the criteria for me? That means I belong here?
[00:35:27] Logan: Mm. That sucks.
[00:35:31] Liz: Yeah.
[00:35:31] Logan: I don't like that part of that.
[00:35:33] Liz: And I think like, yeah, I mean we, you mentioned before we started this kind of that, like I was thinking about this like the way that heteronormativity may like creep in, in those moments of like I don't know. I was just, yeah, I, I, that did come up at the festival, like it did it, do I belong? Am I, am I taking up too much space? You know?
[00:36:06] Logan: Yeah. Am I, am I who I say I am?
[00:36:10] Liz: Yeah.
[00:36:12] Logan: When I, it could really. Maybe also be as simple as I am.
[00:36:19] Liz: Yep.
[00:36:19] Logan: Whatever. Just 'cause I know I am.
[00:36:23] Liz: And I deserve to take up space.
Like maybe there doesn't need to be a laundry list to justify how valid our presence is there.
[00:36:37] Logan: Yeah.
[00:36:38] Liz: Maybe we, it just is.
[00:36:40] Logan: Yeah. I hope And, and I, and I also wanna clarify like, I don't think there's anything about this festival where anyone made me feel not queer enough. Like I think this was all just kind of coming from within.
[00:36:53] Liz: Yeah.
[00:36:53] Logan: I wonder if having more, more spaces, more events, more really intentional, um, kind of community gatherings and things like that, like this, um, can help to detangle some of that.
[00:37:12] Liz: Yeah. Rather than it be a once a year space. But like, yeah, going to the events, like whether it's day, day or Yeah.
When Queer Spaces Exclude
[00:37:28] Logan: I will say, and I don't know if we're in the right, if we're in a good situation to be having these, um, conversations.
I don't know that I always, I don't know that I nec why am I not saying it straight up? Some queer spaces do not feel like affirming like this though. Yeah. There are spaces where like people have, like I, I've been told by other queer people, like
[00:37:55] Liz: mm-hmm.
[00:37:56] Logan: Oh, like the trans thing? I can't understand. Or like, uh,
[00:38:01] Liz: yeah.
[00:38:01] Logan: You know, or like, I guess, I don't know, like little things are like, um, not a bi erasure and like, there's just. Um, I think more that we can do to challenge the internalized heteronormativity, the internalized homophobia, the internalized biphobia,
[00:38:21] Liz: trans,
[00:38:21] Logan: all
[00:38:21] Liz: of
[00:38:21] Logan: these things.
[00:38:22] Liz: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's real. I agree.
Like this space felt not at all that way, and it sounds like both of us, like the things that came up were like it my own shit was definitely my own internal fear. But I think, yeah, I think as the, I think it's important for us and, and the queer community to, I agree with you. I feel like there are these spaces that aren't inclusive, aren't safe, aren't accepting in the way that this festival was.
And, and I wish it like maybe to something to like. It's important to keep in mind as queer folks creating spaces, like being aware of like, is this inclusive? Is this quote unquote safe, welcoming?
[00:39:22] Logan: Yeah.
[00:39:22] Liz: I think, I'm glad you brought that up.
Take Up Space Closing
[00:39:24] Logan: I hope, um, I just really hope that, you know, if anyone is out there listening that resonates with that experience of wondering like, am I anything blank enough?
[00:39:39] Liz: Hmm.
[00:39:39] Logan: That, you know, that that's, that you're not the only one that has the ghost of, the ghost of social narratives about what it, what makes any what makes you valid in any identity.
[00:39:56] Liz: Yes.
[00:39:57] Logan: And that just having those thoughts alone doesn't in and of itself reflect that you don't belong or that you are not who you are or that you're, I don't know. I feel like I should say a third thing to balance the sentence out, but I forgot.
[00:40:23] Liz: I think that was beautifully said, Logan. And what a beautiful thing to end on.
[00:40:30] Logan: Take up space. Take up space.
[00:40:32] Liz: You deserve it.
[00:40:33] Logan: Be you. There may be some other voices. We do live in a society.
[00:40:41] Liz: Yeah.
Friends Gratitude and Goodbye
[00:40:42] Logan: But, um, no, I've, I've really enjoyed this little debrief. Me too. On our time at Know Other Festival.
[00:40:52] Liz: And can I just say thank you so much for letting me cling to you and Valerie. Oh my
[00:40:57] Logan: gosh, thank you. I know, I'm glad we got that like outta the way on the first night I was like, I'm trying to hang out with you. Are you trying to hang out with me?
[00:41:05] Liz: We were like, can we all cling? Is that okay? That brought me a like. So at ease. So thank you. I had such a silly time with you both.
[00:41:15] Logan: Me too. I'm really glad. I'm really glad we all went together.
[00:41:20] Liz: Yeah. Thank goodness. That was so lovely getting quality time.
[00:41:24] Logan: Mm-hmm. Next year I'm trying to get all the tents in the same area. Yes. And a big easy up in the middle.
[00:41:30] Liz: Yes.
[00:41:30] Logan: And we'll have our little living room. So
[00:41:33] Liz: yeah.
[00:41:34] Logan: Friends, if you're out there, you wanna come through and be a part of this tent town.
[00:41:42] Liz: Town.
[00:41:43] Logan: Let us know.
[00:41:44] Liz: Let us know.
[00:41:45] Logan: Let us know in the comments.
[00:41:46] Liz: We got some space. So take up that space please. We love
[00:41:53] Logan: it. We love it. Um, thanks everyone for listening to us ramble our rambles.
[00:42:02] Liz: Thank you so much. And thank you, Logan.
[00:42:05] Logan: Thank you Liz.
[00:42:06] Liz: Thank you. I really appreciate your friendship.
[00:42:10] Logan: Me too.
All
[00:42:14] Liz: right, let's, we gotta, we gotta, we, we do have to close out this and go to our next meeting, so thanks for listening.
[00:42:23] Logan: We love you.
[00:42:25] Liz: We love you all.
tootaloo.
[00:42:29] Logan: I was gonna say tootaloo.
[00:42:30] Liz: No, say go.
[00:42:32] Logan: Well now I'll say tootles.
[00:42:34] Liz: TTYL. Peace and love.
Today's episode is bringing you to Know Other Festival. It's a yearly queer wellness and camping experience rooted in healing, joy, and self-expression. You can find out more and keep up with everything they have coming up at knowotherfestival.com.
We would also like to mention The Collective Coalition San Diego. They are building intentional queer community in San Diego, and they are doing the work of creating the kinds of spaces we were talking about today — inclusive, affirming, and real. You can learn more about them at thecollectivecoalitionsandiego.org.
Featured therapist speakers:
I believe that healing doesn’t happen in isolation—it happens in connection, in chosen family, in community, and in relationships that hold us when the world doesn’t.
Sometimes healing feels heavy, but other times it looks like a laugh you didn’t know you needed, a moment of quiet joy, or even silliness and play that remind you of your aliveness. I’m committed to creating spaces where all of these parts are welcomed and where you can feel safe, seen, and honored.
I am here to create a welcoming environment for you to explore your identity, relationships, and cultural intersections to start to feel more free to be who you truly are. I help people go from feeling stuck to feeling empowered and authentic in order to create and maintain changes that help them get unstuck.
GET HELP NOW
If you are interested in therapy with Kindman & Co. and would like to learn more about the services we have to help you, follow these quick & easy steps:
Schedule a free 20-minute phone consultation with our Care Coordinator.
Get matched with the therapist who’s right for you.
Start feeling more supported and fulfilled in your life and relationships!
THERAPY AT KINDMAN & CO.
We are here for your diverse L.A. counseling needs. Our team of therapists provides lgbtqia+ affirmative therapy, couples therapy & premarital counseling, grief & loss counseling, group therapy, and more. We have specialists in trauma, women's issues, depression & anxiety, substance use, mindfulness & embodiment, and support for creatives. For therapists and practice owners, we also provide consultation and supervision services! We look forward to welcoming you for therapy in Highland Park and online.