On the Podcast: Why Grief Never Ends (and Why That’s Okay)
episode summary
In this episode, therapists Dani and Anna dive deep into their experiences with grief and cultural practices surrounding it, particularly the creation of ofrendas for Día de los Muertos. They discuss the emotional complexities and mixed reactions associated with setting up an ofrenda in their office for the past three years. Dani, coming from a Mexican family, highlights how these practices bring her comfort and help embrace her culture, while Anna reflects on her own journey of adopting these practices despite concerns over cultural appropriation. They both share how this tradition has fostered a space for communal grieving and cultural appreciation within their work environment.
The conversation extends to their personal and professional encounters with grief. Dani speaks about her work with clients dealing with various forms of loss, including anticipatory grief and the grief of losing relationships with living people. Anna reflects on the long-lasting impact of losing her mother at a young age and how it has shaped her worldview and therapeutic practices. Together, they explore the profound connections formed through grief work, the importance of embracing one's emotions, and the value of creating spaces for grieving within therapy. They urge listeners to seek support, emphasizing the transformative power of having someone to share the burden of grief, whether through therapy, support groups, or spiritual guidance. The episode concludes with a reminder that grieving is a personal journey, and it's essential to make room for one's emotions and experiences.
Introduction to the Podcast
You are listening to out of Session with Kindman and Co. A feelings forward podcast where we leave our therapist selves at the door and have messy real conversations about being human.
In this episode, Dani and Anna, who are both therapists specializing in grief, discuss their experiences and challenges related to grief therapy. The conversation delves into the complexities of grief. The emotional depth it brings to therapy and the importance of making space for different types of grief.
They urge listeners to seek support, emphasizing the transformative power of having someone to share the burden of grief, whether through therapy, support groups, or spiritual guidance.
[00:00:46] Anna: We are rolling.
[00:00:51] Anna: Okay, Dani, it's sad season. How you doing?
[00:00:57] Dani: I'm just a grief ghoul going through October. How am I doing? I do love October for spooky season reasons, so I'm feeling excited about that.
The Significance of the Ofrenda
[00:01:10] Dani: You know, we just put the ofrenda up in the office for Day of the Dead, and I'm feeling both excited about that season, coming to see other ofrendas around, I don't know, like community spaces, uh, but there's something that's been hard to like put up my own ofrenda in, in my own house.
Um, so I think that just speaks to the sadness that I feel.
[00:01:35] Anna: Yeah. I mean, I think it's hard for lots of people. It's interesting. This is the third year I think that we've put the ofrenda up. And every year, uh, it's a pretty mixed reaction, I would say, um, from both, you know, employees here, but also clients to how people feel seeing that.
[00:01:54] Dani: Totally. I think it's, um, it's even. Been interest, interesting to see like how the pictures and photos progressed and which ones become familiar. Um, that maybe I don't even know the person's name, but recognize their face, or like a pet that I recognize. So it's nice to see it evolve and I know that it brings up a lot for people.
But for context, Anna and I have been putting up an ofrenda in the office waiting room for about, uh, three years now. And we have like quite a history in talking about what Day of the Dead meets to us. As someone that's born into a Mexican family, I think it's been really close to home in a way that I've found comfort in grieving and embracing culture.
And it's been a really great experience to like sort of help bring you into that.
Cultural Appropriation and Grief
[00:02:48] Anna: Yeah, I'm not Mexican or Korean for anyone who was wondering.
[00:02:54] Dani: Last name. Anna Kim. Uh, not Korean or Mexican,
[00:02:58] Anna: but uh, yeah, there's something about DÃa de los Muertos that's very, it's maybe my favorite holiday. I've experienced a lot of loss in my life, um, starting from a very young age.
And the messaging I got about that was really don't talk about it. It makes other people uncomfortable, um, makes you weird or sad or unpleasant or wet blanket. And so I think seeing an ofrenda in bright colors and in a celebration and just in public, um, being able to say like, here are people who have died.
And they mattered to me, was really, um, just kind of magical and inspiring. So I've really adopted it in a way that's. Probably slightly cultural appropriation, but I've really tried to learn about the history of the ritual and the sort of meaning and emotionality behind it. And, um, the pieces of our ofrenda are sort of gathered from multiple places, but we have, um, like things gathered from Mexico and, um, we are really trying to like, keep it as authentic as we can.
[00:04:06] Dani: Yeah, totally. I'm so curious about, uh, why you think maybe you're embracing some sort, sort of cultural appropriation, just sort of knowing you and how we've done this together and talked about it and collected, um, really special like pieces to put on the ofrenda.
[00:04:25] Anna: I think it's just not like my culture to, to have or to celebrate or to.
Um, yeah, there's just, I think, always a piece of it that feels like, oh, I'm not supposed to be doing this or participating, which is interesting 'cause I think that, and I, I know that some clients feel that way, um, whether it's because of like identity or race or background or, um, maybe they just feel like, oh, my loss isn't as valid.
It wasn't as close or. Um, I dunno, I don't deserve to like, take up space on such a limited mantle piece or something like that.
[00:05:03] Dani: Mm-hmm. I feel actually pretty sad when you say that just because, I don't know, it's been like such an exciting journey to create this with you in the office, and we've quite literally gone to Mexico City together and sort of just like, uh, collected things for our own ofrendas at home.
Um, I feel like we've collected a lot of experiences, and I have a lot of memories and just talking with you about grief and someone as someone who almost like admires grief has experienced it. Really sees it in this light of like this beautiful pain. It's sort of sad to know that there's a part of you that questions like, oh, maybe I shouldn't embrace this.
Or it sounds like with your experience with some clients, them even having similar thoughts of, oh, I'd like to express my grief in this way, but I don't know if there's quite literally room for my people on the ofrenda. I don't know if there's room for my grief. And I think that just is a sad thing, even if it's not about enough friend that, but just not having enough room for your grief is never a good feeling.
[00:06:14] Anna: But I feel like that's so much grief, experience in general that like there's never enough room for it.
Therapists' Specialization in Grief Work
[00:06:32] Anna: I think also it's maybe worth backing up, um, a bit to name that Dani and I both, uh, are therapists here who specialize in grief work. Um, maybe should have led with that. But if you've made it this far, thank you. And nice to meet you. Um, but uh, yeah, like this is an area of expertise for us, not just in October, but at many times of year.
I really focus on working with people who have, loved ones who have died, um, or who have experienced that kind of death or loss or, or maybe, um, preparing to experience it themselves. And, uh, Dani focuses on a kind of grief that's more about do, what do you wanna say?
[00:07:00] Dani: I was just, I liked, um, the idea of you gassing me up in, in what I do, but I'll say it.
Yeah, I, I do, uh, work with folks who have experienced a loved one that has died or is in that process of grieving, um, and that anticipatory grief. But I also do really, I guess it always sounds weird to say enjoy when we're talking about grief, but I do enjoy, I guess, uh, working with clients who are navigating sort of this daily grief, um, the loss of a person in your life who is very much alive but maybe refuses to respect your boundaries, um, who you have to say goodbye to or who they have said goodbye to you. Um, that includes like heartbreak or, I don't know, a friendship that has ended somehow. I think that's informed a lot by my experience with grief as like a teen related to coming out. And the people that I've sort of lost along the way who through their actions, said like, I'm not gonna be there for you because of who you love.
[00:08:12] Anna: Oh, talk about sad Dani. It's terrible.
[00:08:18] Dani: I know. I feel, I feel a little terrible right now.
[00:08:21] Anna: It's okay. But I think, um, you said it feels weird to say enjoy about this work. And I, I can relate to that because I think there is something, I mean, we specialize in it, right?
There's some reason that we are interested in this and, um, it's not just because we're people who like to watch other people suffer. Um, but there is something like really profoundly powerful about grief work and therapy. And I'm just curious what your experience has been like as a grief therapist.
Like what, what keeps you coming back to this topic?
[00:08:52] Dani: Hmm.
Profound Experiences in Grief Therapy
[00:08:54] Dani: I think I, there is, um, a deep connection with a client who is in like a really challenging part of their life that feels, like I said earlier, almost like there's no room for it or I don't even know to how to hold my own grief and to sort of tell that person like, it's okay, I can hold it with you.
Um, it's okay that it's so big. It's okay that you feel nothing like to just normalize, which is I guess in, um, therapy world, like a pretty common, normal thing to do, right? Like, to just normalize someone experience, um, as they're grieving can be so powerful to let that person know you have permission to feel however you feel right now, and it's okay how big it is, how small it is, uh, whatever color it is, it doesn't matter.
We can hold that together. And so I think, I think it's those, I, I like the word that you said earlier, profound. It's those profound experiences that feel very powerful. And very meaningful to just let somebody be. I think oftentimes we wanna do something with grief, um, and in, and, and I think it's appropriate, right?
Like an ofrenda that is doing something with grief and creating like a visual, um, remembering of people and loved ones. I think it's important to do that, but also don't, you don't have to do anything.
[00:10:21] Anna: Yeah. I mean. Uh, as you were talking, I was thinking about this like space being created and how our conversation started with like, maybe there's not enough space or not feeling included.
And I think that's what's interesting to me about grief work is um, there are some sorts of therapy that feel I dunno, like they have a trajectory or they have maybe an end, like someone really wants a, a partner, uh, or something like that. And then you do all this work on why haven't they had one and their relationship stuff and whatever.
And then they get a partner and it's so awesome. And it's not like the work is done, but like that is. Sort of achieved in a way. Sure.
The Unending Nature of Grief
[00:10:58] Anna: And grief is just much more amorphous and globular and like unending. I don't like the work that you have to do in grief. I mean, you know. My mom died 19, when I was 19, like that's so many years ago.
And still, I think about it most days, it impacts decisions that I make. Like it still comes up and it's very different than in the beginning. But um, there's just something about sitting with someone and knowing like we're in it for the long haul. Like, I got you. I can hold space for this as long and as big as you need it.
Um, that's just really cool and different from some other kinds of therapy.
[00:11:40] Dani: And it's so hard to find people that will say, yes, I am in it for the long haul in this like deeply emotional place with you that's gonna get, uh, messy. I, I, I sort of reference grief, um, in a funny way. I say like, I'm in the grief gravy 'cause I, I enjoy gravy, but, um, but it's like brown.
It gets like clumpy, like it's kind of gross. Right. Sometimes needs to be reheated. Yeah. Like so to say to somebody like, yes, I will sit in this grief gravy with you. I just wish that I could, uh, offer that to more people. I'm curious, in your experience in working with folks, um, and having experienced like so much of your own grief, what is a question that can sort of stump you at this point? Or what is a question that becomes really challenging? When a client is just asking like they want an answer.
[00:12:38] Anna: Mm-hmm. That's a hard question. I think the first thing that comes to mind is some version of like, when will I be myself again?
[00:12:50] Dani: Hmm.
[00:12:51] Anna: Um, and it's not because I don't know the answer, it's because I do know the answer, which is never.
[00:12:57] Dani: Oof.
[00:12:58] Anna: Like, you won't, you can't go back. There's only one direction of time.
It's forward. Yeah. And I think it's that. Like every person who loses someone has to figure that out for themselves. And it's so painful to watch someone sort of grasping at the past. And I think, you know, obviously the stages of grief are flawed, but um, this like shows up in so many parts of it, right?
Like denial or bargaining, that's all this attempt to get back to something. And I think ultimately everyone. Comes to a place where they have to figure out how to move forward. That's the question. Is like, how am I gonna live with this? But yeah, I think just when someone is like, how long, like,
[00:13:41] Dani: How long is it gonna take for me to get back to my old self?
[00:13:44] Anna: Yeah. And I have to sort of say like, Ugh, I'm so sorry. Um you, you won't, you can't.
[00:13:53] Dani: I agree with that piece of like, the person just has to get there on their own. Uh, sort of speaking from my own experience, as a person, but also as a therapist. Somebody could tell you what you just said over and over again, but until you like, really feel it in the depths of you and really accept it, will you start to actually know that the rest of your life, you are going to carry this with you and this experience has changed you forever.
[00:14:21] Anna: And of course you wanna go back like, it sucks. This is a shitty club.
[00:14:26] Dani: Yeah.
[00:14:26] Anna: I don't, I don't like to have anyone join me in it.
[00:14:30] Dani: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:30] Anna: And I think the way that I often describe experiencing a close loss is, um, that all of a sudden you're on the other side of a piece of glass from everyone that you've known and like you can see them and they can see you, but they can't see the glass.
Like they don't understand that you, you are somewhere else now. Mm-hmm. And it's very painful. And it feels like you're the only one over there and you're not. Obviously there are those of us who have been exploring this side of the, the veil for a long time. But yeah, there's like a loneliness and isolation and I think that feeling fuels a lot of the like,
the sort of like, not being able to know it until you do. I think people hurdle themselves against the glass, you know, trying to get back through and like, of course, of course you miss it. Of course there is a part of you that's like, wow, it was easier before I knew this.
[00:15:25] Dani: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:26] Anna: Um, and I really think there's a strong argument that it's better over here.
No shade, but like it's a really high cost to pay. But it gives you an awareness that I, I really believe. It, um, makes life richer or fuller in a different way.
[00:15:48] Dani: There's like a large part of me that totally agrees with you, and there's a large part of me that, um, it's not even a part of me maybe, but, uh, there's a piece of me that's like, Ooh.
I think actually a lot of people would disagree with that.
[00:16:03] Anna: That which part?
[00:16:04] Dani: Uh, disagree with that. It's better on, you know, sort of this side of the glass. I think because the folks that I encounter oftentimes are just like, how do I get rid of this? It sucks. It sucks. It sucks.
[00:16:18] Anna: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:18] Dani: Get me out of here.
Take this glass away. Get me back. I, I feel like you want out oftentimes, and it's hard to get to a place where you're like, oh, this has changed me. And I will forever see the world differently. And there are so many ways that that is, um, sad and heartbreaking.
[00:16:42] Anna: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:43] Dani: But there's also this other version where it's like, and I can see the beauty in life and I can sit with somebody because I know what it's like to be in sort of that deep of a place.
Or, I can connect with people. And I don't really like small talk anymore because I know that there's bigger things that we're all carrying.
[00:17:04] Anna: Yeah. Or I can appreciate what I have to lose here.
[00:17:07] Dani: Yeah.
[00:17:09] Anna: And I mean everything like people, but also like nature, the world, like the banal every day doing laundry, like
[00:17:20] Dani: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:21] Anna: I think once you realize that all that stuff goes away, I mean, depending on what you believe, there's just a different way to be in the world. And, and I do think, I don't know if this happens for everyone, but it happens for a lot of people. I think, and it certainly happened for me that, um, the longer people say like, oh, time makes it better.
I don't think time makes it better. It, it doesn't.
[00:17:40] Dani: I don't think so either.
[00:17:41] Anna: Uh, but what it, what time does is it changes it, and one thing that it changes is it changes the percentage of your life that you have been this person versus the person you were before. And in a little bit of like a butterfly effect kind of way.
You can't anymore know what would have happened had that person lived and what wouldn't have, and that you start to accumulate more and more things that maybe you wouldn't trade.
[00:18:08] Dani: Oh, that's interesting.
[00:18:10] Anna: For them back, like, I, I don't, Cheryl Stray is a writer. Um, she wrote Wild and several other things that are very famous, but.
Her mom died when she was young, and she's now in her mid forties, I think. And she writes a lot about, um, saying like, I'm a better person because my mom died when I was young. Hmm. And I very much relate to that. And it sucks. 'cause there is of course a part of me that's like, I, I would trade it. Yeah. Like, I'll be a shitty person.
[00:18:39] Dani: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:39] Anna: Who has a mom. Um, but I don't even know the, sort of, the longer I go, the more I'm like, I would, I?
[00:18:46] Dani: Mm,
[00:18:46] Anna: I don't really know. I've only ever been this person, now.
[00:18:51] Dani: It's, it's so interesting to talk with you about grief and I, I don't think I can emphasize enough to like the people listening, how much, how many hours you and I have spent talking about grief sort of collectively.
Just about our own grief, not about clients, not about theory or whatever, but just about your, and my experiences and
[00:19:38] Dani: I appreciate talking with you and I feel like I learned so much about, uh, grief through your experience and the way that you sort of hold it within yourself because our grief is so different. Um, like, sure, I've experienced the death, death kind of grief, but I've experienced other kinds of grief that maybe you haven't.
[00:20:00] Anna: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:01] Dani: And I feel like there's so many shades of grief that. On one hand, I sort of look at it in this like upset, frustrated way. Like, wow, there really is so many ways to be hurt in this world, and so many ways to experience loss. And I feel just bad. I don't like it. I, I, I'm angry. Um, and then there's another side of me that really thinks like, wow, there are so many versions of grief.
Like how could I ever judge somebody else's? And, um, how could. How could we sort of live in this world that doesn't create enough space for everybody's experiences? 'cause they're all painful.
[00:20:40] Anna: Mm-hmm. Yeah. But they're all so uncomfortable because if we really think about it, it means we're gonna die too.
[00:20:48] Dani: I know.
[00:20:48] Anna: And people hate that.
[00:20:51] Dani: Yeah. I guess I can't, like I know that, but I can't really, i've just been on board so long that I'm gonna die.
[00:21:01] Anna: You just, you just drank the Kool-Aid.
[00:21:02] Dani: I drank so much Kool-Aid of yes, I'm gonna die. I know I'm gonna die. Um, but I don't really understand it anymore. I'm like, wait, people aren't realizing that we're gonna die.
This is gonna be over.
[00:21:16] Anna: I don't know. I think I, I get it.
Facing Mortality and the Fear of Dying
[00:21:18] Anna: I have moments, you know, those, those moments where it like, everything is so good and then you're just like, oh no, like, like what, what do I believe about what happens? And what does that mean for, I mean, I think this is. A big part of why religion and these like, larger ideas exist, right?
Is that like fear. I think it's very hard for people to sit with just complete unknown. Mm-hmm. Like absolute mystery. Yeah. And sometimes when you're sitting with it, the feeling that comes up is terror. Like what if it's bad?
[00:21:53] Dani: The what if it's bad part? I think I, um. That one gets me. I don't, I'm not afraid of dying.
I don't deny it like, um, that it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. However, I don't know the universe decides, or whoever decides, uh, but re in recent years I've seen some pretty bad dying processes. And I think working in like the cancer field, I've heard of plenty of bad dying processes that are long and gross and.
Demanding emotionally, physically. And that is something that I'm, I'm really becoming more, I guess like afraid of. 'cause I don't want a long struggle. I don't think anybody does. But I think it happens more than we like to admit. There's like this conversation that. Or this, this part of the conversation that gets highlighted of, oh, we just, uh, you know, if we die in our sleep, that's great and yeah, that'd be really cool, but the longer I'm alive, I'm realizing the less of that actually happens.
[00:23:01] Anna: Sure. But I think part of the reason that that does happen and it's totally gruesome, is that ultimately we do want to live. And when given the choice for a little more gruesome life, I think most people choose it. And I think like that is interesting and, and of course some people don't, right? Mm-hmm.
There are things mostly in other countries. Shout out to other countries, keep doing what you're doing. Um, yeah, that we don't have access to here in the same way, but like. I don't know if physician assisted suicide was a common and available option that most people would take it. I think sometimes a little gruesome life is worth it.
You could maybe read one more book or listen to one more song like, see your children one more time. I think that's the complexity of it, is that life is awesome, even if it's painful and so, so shitty.
[00:24:00] Dani: I feel just really struck by that. I don't, um, I think I am, I'm struck by it. I feel emotional in this moment in sort of being in this like, long process of watching somebody die currently. And see the ways that they're like, uh, spirit has like faded.
And in that experience I can really see that that person like wants more of me.
[00:24:28] Anna: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:31] Dani: So it feels very special to think like, ah, maybe they're holding on for me.
[00:24:36] Anna: Yeah, who wouldn't?
[00:24:37] Dani: Oh my gosh.
Ouch.
[00:24:46] Anna: For anyone who's getting glistening at home for their own reasons, I think. Part of why I wanted to have this conversation is that there isn't enough room and no one is talking about these things. And it's okay to feel all of it.
[00:25:05] Dani: If this 20 some minute podcast could offer you space to just feel it. I hope you play it over and over again.
I hope that you can feel your grief. I hope that, you know it's valid. And if I think this like hit one person, I'd be so stoked.
[00:25:24] Anna: Yeah.
Encouragement for Seeking Support
[00:25:25] Anna: I also, I, I hate to sound like I'm making a big plug for therapy and I'm marketing us hard or something. Um, it doesn't have to be us, but I would like to just make a plug for therapy for grief.
I think, part of what I was talking about earlier about like, would I trade it, uh, I've had the same therapist almost the whole time since my mom died, and. It's strange to think that I'm more connected to that person now maybe than I was to my mom.
[00:25:52] Dani: Wow.
[00:25:53] Anna: And I don't know if I would trade that and like, what an incredible thing.
And I aspire to be that person for other people. That's part of why I became a therapist and I just, it is so powerful to not be alone. It's such a hard thing to sit in grief by yourself because it does feel endless and it's so, so big. Um, so if you're like on the fence or considering or scared, it could be an individual therapist, it could be a group.
Um, there are some great grief focused groups in Los Angeles for different kinds of loss. I would just really, really encourage you to seek out. Someone, even a spiritual guider, um, spiritual provider who, whoever you feel like you can confide in about what you're really going through, don't do it alone.
[00:26:40] Dani: And we'll link some resources that are accessible in the LA area and maybe even, I don't know, outta state. We will, we will look some things up and link it. You're not alone.
[00:26:49] Anna: Yeah, we're gonna go, um, dry our, glistening little eyes, and you should go back to your day and, try to see what about life is there for you.
Conclusion and Resources
Today's episode is bringing you to Delicias Bakery and Some, a local Highland Park bakery where you can get your Pan De Muerto for your ofrenda. And our house Grief support center specialized grief groups. You can view their website at ourhouse-grief.org.
In this heartfelt conversation, Anna and Danny shared what they had learned from years of sitting with loss, both personally and professionally, and why making room for grief was an act of love.
Grief didn't end. It changed.
As always, you can find the full transcript of the episode on our blog and sign up for our newsletter to stay connected. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.
Featured therapist speakers:
dani marrufo
I am here to help you celebrate all the parts of yourself and begin to live the fully authentic, emboldened life that you desire. I live at the intersection of queer and Mexican and have felt that fully embracing one identity means grappling with the other. From feeling shame about my curly hair, to fearing the expression of my androgynous presentation, I have come to value and embrace these revered parts of myself. I truly get the complexities of navigating intersecting identities and want to help you feel empowered to also live your truth.
anna kim
Being alive is infinitely complicated. It can be wonderful, embarrassing, scary, exciting. Aliveness can mean so many different things to each person based on their past experiences of self, family, relationships, and systems. It can be really, really amazing to be a person, and also and really, really hard. I want to help you figure out who you are even amidst transition, loss, pain, and other disasters. My purpose as a therapist is to help you expand your emotional experience—to appreciate not only joy and happiness, but also to welcome more challenging emotions that will help you feel more authentic, clarify your values, and build meaningful and supportive connections with others.
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