On Fatherhood & Masculinity
Below is the transcript from an Interview with Jose Vidrio of Highland Park Training on our Podcast, Out of Session with Kindman & Co. Read on for a discussion about new parenting—especially fatherhood, the importance of gentleness and sitting with discomfort, building new versions of masculinity, and cultivating accessible and inclusive gym culture that contradicts stereotypical forms of masculinity.
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Dani: Hi, my name is Dani and you’re listening to Out of Session with Kindman & Co.: a feelings forward podcast where we leave our therapist selves at the door and have messy, real conversations about being human.
Today's topic is fatherhood and masculinity, and we welcome our very first guest ever, José Vidrio. A very wholesome human who is the owner of Highland Park Training, which is a functional fitness gym that truly values community equity and empowerment. José takes a kindhearted and encouraging approach to being a coach at Highland Park training and leaves each glass with warmth, lots and lots of laughter and just good times. Outside of the gym though, José is a soon to be father and so I've been having smaller side conversations in the middle of workouts or before or after about him preparing for fatherhood. And José, I'm very excited to bring you on to this podcast to expand those conversations a little bit more. So welcome to Out of Session. How are you feeling now that you're, I think it's two weeks away from your baby being born?
José: I feel so grateful, so blessed. I'm excited, but I know I'm nervous. Or like, I know. Things that I I know. Uh, I'm going to learn a lot from this experience. So I'm just happy to like, be open to like whatever happens. And like, I know I have my parents and Sam's parents, and Sam's just an amazing person, so. Be surrounded by those people is a blessing for me.
Dani: Hmm. Just surrounding yourself with good people. Good people, yeah. You have a very lovely wife, Sam.
José: She's the best thing that happened to me.
Dani: That's amazing. That's a good person to parent with, you know. Yeah, you're gonna wanna be with somebody that's that's a person in their life. That's awesome. I think I was so curious to talk to you, curious to do a podcast with you, because just like approaching parenthood, I know that there is a ton of information, and this could be that I have a biased perspective being a woman. But there is so much information about like womanhood, having a baby, being pregnant. And it seems like there's this scale that's tipped where it's heavily dominant on the person that's pregnant. There's books, there's podcast, there's TV shows, movies. I feel like since planning for this podcast I haven't seen like a a TV series that hasn't happened.
masculinity & new fatherhood
José: There's nothing for like men.
Dani: Yeah, but I haven't seen that there's like not as much prep that they want men to do or like the the other partner to do. What was your experience with that?
José: I think I had to like I had to force myself onto to like I think an example is the baby shower. The baby shower in the past like it used to be a woman thing. Now it's more open to men. Men are invited to to baby showers. So me being involved more like actively trying to be involved in whatever baby shower put it, putting things together, I think that's the only thing that might have is like putting things together. Plus furniture. A lot of furniture, A lot of lot of IKEA stuff, a lot of cribs. I finally set my my chair in my car. So I'm excited. It turns and everything. I'm just so excited every single time. It gets a little bit more real and real and real. Every month got a little bit more real and real and real and now, like now we're going to walk out of the hospital with like a kid.
Dani: A full on, full baby baby.
José: Yeah, yeah, ideally that is gonna happen in the next few weeks. I say yeah. So there's not a ton of information.
Dani: It seems like in prep work for becoming a father, you kind of just were like throwing yourself into things. But I think that just goes to show, like there's not really a handbook on how to do it. so we're gonna be talking about you becoming a father you're a few weeks out from that do you already consider yourself a father?
José: No, no I I don't because I don't have a kid. Or maybe say like maybe I never asked that. That's a great question I never asked Sam, “if you consider yourself as a mom”. I I've, I've been very forward about, you know, Mother’s Day just past and I'm like, “hey, like our like, are you a mom or like do I give you flowers?” Like, I, maybe it's a bad question to ask but I just want to be on the same communication. Like if I don't bring you flowers, that doesn't mean you're not a mom or does it mean and if I bring flowers, like you're a mom, right there was so interesting too.
Dani: It's like she was writing the the line: mom-cusping, I mean, I think it's so personal, right? Yeah. Some folks, like, want to have their child in hand to feel like they have become that parent. And some people prior to that, maybe like later in the pregnancy, they're already feeling like they're caring for that part of them, trying to be a parent already. Like you said, you're doing a lot of prep work.
José: And maybe right now maybe I realize, like, yeah, like Sam's been taking care of our kid in the womb. So. So she is a mom, or when does it start?
Dani: It sounds like, well that’s for everyone to decide! It sounds like for you It starts when you have child in hand. In hand.
José: That's my official thing.
Dani: Locked in the car, Yeah.
José: Driving home? Yes. And if they even let me take the car. I don't know if I even put it right. So I'll find out that day! I feel confident, I shook it a couple times! (both Dani and José laughing)
Dani: Yeah, look that in approaching fatherhood, then do you feel like you've done in your reflection on your own masculinity or what it is to be a father?
interrupting generational patterns with unconditional love
José: Well, growing up with my dad, like, my dad told me stories about his dad and how he treated him. [Dani: mhmmm]. So now that I grown up, or that my dad raised me or my parents raised people, especially my dad, my dad did certain things that, like, I didn't like, and I don't want my kid to go through that. But I'm sure when I'm older and he has kids, if he wants kids, he's gonna do things that like he didn't like I I I did to him. [Dani: Hmm.] Maybe punishment or maybe the way I raised them or so I'm just trying to do my best with this caterer, you know, for me, and breaking down like generational curse or kind of having that, like, I don't know what's my generation curse. That's why I'm trying to go to therapy. [both laughing] But I'm sure like through trauma and everything, I'm not trying to hand that over to to my kid, to argue my kids or if I have more kids. I don't want that for my for my kid.
Dani: Yeah, you're you're trying to do your part and kind of reflecting and it seems like you did that before, right? You saw and heard your dad's experience. Now you're reflecting on yours, seeing what you're going to pass on. But there is some somewhat of an unknown, like what will you pass on? [José: Right. Yeah.] Hopefully there will be a lot of a lot of values and character qualities that you want to see passed on to your kid. But I think you're like leaving room for like you’re going to try to do your best.
José: Yes, that’s it! People tell me, you know are you nervous? Or like, but the only thing I can do is give this kid like unconditional love and support that, that, that can. It's gonna be like a rock. Like, whatever. Whatever, even if i get scared if i get uncomfortable for like what he does or I just had to feel uncomfortable and like to support him and like love him unconditionally.
Dani: Yeah, it's more you're talking about things that are more based in, like emotional safety, right? To be able to support somebody, love them in your emotional journey, right? Is that something that feels comfortable? Like are you able to go to that vulnerable place easily and like sit in a feelings space?
José: No. No. Ever since Sam got pregnant there's times that I felt uncomfortable and I wanna leave the room, I wanna leave the the conversation, but I make myself stay there longer just so I can feel that uncomfortableness. What I notice like going a lot more from sitting with the uncomfortableness and even those I'm like. If it makes my palms sweaty, it makes my voice like crackle. Like I stay there and try to be brave, encouraged to look, to feel those emotions.
Dani: That's powerful.
José: I try. I try. Sometimes I walk out of the room and like I, but I'll come back the next day and I'll try again.
Dani: I think I felt like a little bit of sadness when you said that just because it's you're talking about this piece of putting yourself in an uncomfortable situation because you want to grow there. It's an interesting line though, right? Like to know, am I emotionally safe and can I push through this? Or, am I so uncomfortable that I need to leave? It seems like you're boundary, you're starting to understand, but you really want to like, develop that skill of like, sitting in the uncomfortable. [José: Yes]. Um would they do things like that also like would they sit in the uncomfortable, would they leave?
José: I think my dad would leave the conversation. Like, bro, like we're just having a conversation and we're not arguing. We're not like fighting or we're not like, but there's certain things that happen or like that we disagree on and we just need to talk so we can be on the same page. And I felt like a lot of my my, like my parents or my family, I've noticed just kind of like, leave the conversation. Like we're just trying to talk. I'm trying to talk this out. I'm not trying to like regañarte. I'm not trying to bring it down. I'm trying to so we can both be on the same page and I feel a lot of a lot of situations or a lot of problems that we had. If we just had a talk, this whole thing could have been solved, even though like one of us or both of us would have feel uncomfortable. But at the end of the day, like you're my dad, I'm your son, that doesn't change. So you could be mad at me for a little bit or I could be mad at you for a little bit, but like that doesn't change, so you.
Dani: They're gonna know each other forever.
José: Yeah, ideally. And that's like and life is not that long. Life is not that long. I'm already 30 years old. My dad's already 60.
Dani: Life keeps going. And what I'm hearing is that you want you want those long relationships with your dad. Like it sounds like you want that long lasting relationship with your son. And to get there you're saying like you're going to have to sit in these uncomfortable feelings, but you want to, right?
José: Yeah, I yeah, I have to. I have to.
Dani: And so you've had a lot of those conversations with Sam though, leading up to her giving birth.
José: uh, like what conversations?
Dani: Uh, like you had, I guess like any, but those conversations that make you sit in this uncomfortable space.
the importance of sitting with discomfort
José: You know, I don’t think I’ve ever told Sam that like this was something consciously that I’m trying to do when I’m feeling uncomfortable, I sit down. Because you know, Sam, you, Sam’s a loud person. I Sam’s a loud person, she’s intense. I don’t like the spotlight on me, I don’t like people looking at me and Sam's the just kind of the opposite of me. And for a while I felt uncomfortable, and I would be like, “Hey, like, Sam can we talk a little bit slower?” And [she’d be like] “What, no! It doesn’t matter what other people think!” And now I understand, I just have to sit in this uncomfortable feeling because I can’t not have Sam be different. That’s how she is!
Dani: Yeah, you're not asking her to be different. You're asking for a little bit of slowness. [José: Yeah.] But even even then, right? Like, you're sitting in this place of like, “Oh my gosh.”
José: I hate attention. But I don't know. I I hate the center of attention. I hate having any attention on me. And Sam's opposite. Yeah, Her whole family's opposite. They're loud. Um, the loudest one in the the the the table is the one that gets hurt and it's like, fine, that's how it is. Like I...
[both laughing] Dani: that's family! José: yeah yeah!
Dani: That's funny. So, you have like it sounds like you have navigated conversations by like kind of like sitting back, maybe being more quiet, being a little more anxious or nervous, right? Were you, like, deemed as not as ‘masculine’ because of that, or did did you feel like folks judged you for that?
José: I've never thought of like masculinity or me having masculinity. Like, I grew up, my dad, growing up, growing to work. So I hung out with my mom and my mom was in the house, just kind of traditional Mexican household, so like, I help my mom clean the dishes or washing or like... I figured we were just hanging out. And as I get older, it seems kind of weird for like a man to be holding a broom or like a man to be washing dishes. I never realized that until, like I saw someone at like another man washing dishes or my dad never washing dishes. I never realized that until I got this age. That like I do wash dishes or, like I do the kind of typical [Dani: historically like feminine] Yes. Yeah, yeah, so yeah. And my dad never posed like masculine traits on me or like. That never happened to me, or like my dad was never like that.
Dani: Umm, yeah. It seems like maybe not so directly, right. [José: Yeah. Yes.] Yeah, kind of in these indirect ways of him maybe not wanting to engage in some conversation. So I think that some folks have these social constructs of like masculinity or femininity put directly on them, like, oh, to be a man, you need to do this.
José: And, yeah, ‘be tough’. Yeah. ‘You go to to be mean or be the strongest one or’. I think maybe in my family that I just never was.
Dani: Yeah. Yeah. You got, like, more of the undertones of stuff. [José: Yes.] But also there was this piece of, like, you being raised by your mom in the home where you just kind of did your thing with her. And there wasn't, I don't know, there was a judgment.
José: Yeah, until my dad got home and helped. Yeah.
Dani: Yes. Do you want to carry that with you like into parenting of like the helping out around the house and doing anything that comes your way regardless of what historical category it fits in? Masculine, feminine...?
José: I I think me and Sam are a team and we're we're a couple and we have our our strengths and our weaknesses. Sam hates washing the dishes. I understand. I understand. [both laughing] Yeah, so I'll do it. That's her weakness. I'm scared of like I don't know the dark. She's she's she's not. [Dani: hmm!] That's why I feel like we're like perfect together. Like the strengths that she has are my weaknesses and the weaknesses that I have are her strengths. She's a really smart person of, typing stuff, emailing stuff, she can email all day and if I have one email, it stresses me out!
Dani: I hate the email and I had to email you for this I was like, “ohh man I've gotta send an email!” [both laughing]
José: You know I get it takes me all day and “they're like, man, that wasn't so bad, why was I worried about it all day?” And for her, she just fast, quick. She can write a description for a house, no problem. And for me, like man, that would take me all week to do so just like the the the strengths and pros. So like that's how I look at me raising my kid or or whatever, whatever, whatever. The kid, however you outburst when you're mad or like what? The kid just copies you. [Dani: Mhmm, yes] And the kid just copies you. So if you’re, if you’re reading a book, then the kid most likely is gonna wanna open up a book and that can lead to something else. If he sees you helping people, then maybe the kid will help like see like help people.
Dani: Yeah. Like model actually modeling.
José: You see an adult get raged up or like get all mad. That's how your kid is gonna get all raged up and like mad. And I that was me-- when people would come from me, I would just like leave the room and until like Sam was like, ‘you your dad does that. Then you do that.’ Like, Oh my God, I never noticed that! Oh my god! [laughing]
Dani: Self-awareness is so powerful when someone points it out, and like...
José: And one thing is that you have to be okay with that criticism, and you can't be like uh... get your feelings hurt, [or] so so sensitive about it like let people like criticize you and that's gonna help you so much, in the future.
Dani: Yeah. I mean it takes a certain level of like, well, I think that's sort of like the vulnerability and trust in a relationship comes in where you have to be in this like softer space to be able to receive something that someone sharing like a feedback or hear it out, you can have all the feelings that you want about it. And sometimes those are really big feelings where it makes you sad, it makes you angry, it makes you frustrated with the person that you learned it from. [José: Yes] But all of those feelings, right? Like, you can process, you can work through. And I think when we talk about more toxic masculinity, right? Like it doesn't allow for a lot of that soft space [José: yeah, that space] for to sit there and to have these, like, open conversations, to have big feelings, but to communicate them in like a constructive way to offer, like, repair, like if you hurt somebody's feelings to go back in again...
José: Yeah, “Don’t be so sensitive.” I didn’t realize I was a sensitive person until I think I don’t know who told me, my sister, said that, ‘Oh, my dad is so sensitive” and oh man, that could be me too! I didn’t realize I was sensitive until I was pointed out. Umm, because someone tells me something and then like, I don't talk to that person for a week, a month, regardless, like...
Dani: Oh my gosh, I feel like sensitivity, the way that you're describing it too, has so many feelings inside of it. [José: yes] Because when I hear someone say like, don't be sensitive, I would be like, well, maybe I'm like mad or maybe I'm actually sad or maybe I'm hurt from what you said. [José: yes, yes!] But the sensitivity label is very big, so I'd be curious in those moments like to actually sit with yourself be like, “Oh what am I actually feeling right now, right?”
José: [making grunting noises of frustration and laughing] And maybe this is too much, but have you ever had that thing that like if I just tell this person this, like it would change their whole life, but you don't tell that person because it might change your whole relationship. [Dani: oof] It might change, like the whole, they’ll be mad for you forever. But that's why you maybe that person doesn't give you room to like “Hey like look like this is what you're doing. It’s making everyone upset. Like, I'm not trying to be a bad person, I'm just trying to help you or trying to give you a little bit of criticism to help this whole situation.” And it changes everything, but if you tell that person, they could take it the wrong way [Dani: totally] and they could never talk to you, and it could change the whole relationship. And I want to kind of have space for for that the for my mom to tell me, for my sister to tell me, for my wife to tell me like, “hey you're being a dick!” and like instead of me storming me out like, “Ohh like this is ridiculous! I'm leaving!” [both laughing] [Instead] Like, OK, like look, like yeah, like alright, like you're right, I was too loud like or you know. Or, like, okay, I’ll calm down. I can sit with my feelings, breathe it out. Or or, “Why was I being louder? How am I being loud?”
Dani: Yes! That curiosity piece of like inviting like, “OK tell me what you're seeing right now, like how are you seeing me be this way, or that way.” [José: Yes] Yeah, I think it's so powerful that you're you noticed that about you and you're trying to figure out how to stay in those uncomfortable conversations, um, in a way that feels OK for you. I was wondering if we could talk a little bit about the gym culture that you've created. So you've owned your gym for 10 years. I just started almost a year ago, which is almost time flies in July,
José: Time flies. I can't believe it's been a year with you already.
Dani: I know. I was like, I've honestly enjoyed your gym. Thank you so much
José: It’s you guys. You guys, thank you. [Dani: Thank you] It’s just from what from when you started using like a 15 pound bar to like now or like you knowing your way around the gym or like you knowing people there? That's what life brings me happiness, like it’s not the money like that's what brings me happiness, like you talking to other people or you knowing [your way] around the gym like that's what like and I can't believe it's been a year.
Dani: I was thinking about myself when I first started and yeah, the feelings coming into the gym. OK, so here were my thoughts, right? Like, I came into the gym after I had like a seen your Instagram and I saw some like, pride flags. I saw a Black Lives Matter flag that was like in one of the videos and I was like, “OK. Let me go into this gym. It seems kind of CrossFit based. And I was like, oh, I don't know. This seems intimidating, all the masculinity, I don't know.” And, you know, I feel fairly confident moving my body. But I think just entering a gym as a woman has made me feel, before, very uncomfortable. So I was like, I'm gonna take this risk. I'm gonna go. And I went and I met you. You were open and I think that's why i feel so comfortable kind of like getting my bar set up, or like putting the weights on, because you allowed me to like ask questions and you took this perspective of teaching in like a really empowering way that didn't make me feel like, “Ohh gosh I know nothing and it's so obvious and I'm being judged for it or criticized.” So, I think the gym culture you've created has really been inviting in that way and I will ask you any question now.
José: Thank you, thank you. That's all that that's all I want like and just sometimes I still like. I wanna put a a box. Like, I'm just too scared to like put a box for you guys to criticize and, well not criticize. But suggestions feedback. [Dani: Oh, like a suggestions box!] It's just I can't deal with it still. I can't deal with that still. [both laughing]
Dani: But you're learning this whole time we've been talking about how you're like yeah trying to receive feedback in a new way so maybe that's like a goal for the future, future one day you'll have a suggestion box. [both laughing] What are you worried that people are gonna say?
José: Well, every everyone there there's always better things that I could be doing at the gym but like it just sometimes isn't feasible umm, sometimes it just isn't feasible.
Dani: Yeah. Oh, I instantly thought about parenting. Can I tell you why? [José: Tell me. Tell me.] Because you were talking about how you just want to love your kid unconditionally. And, like, maybe those, like, financial pieces, you just can't. But if you could just love somebody and, like, support them, that would be everything that. [José: Yeah.] Yes. I feel like that translates exactly the gym, where it's like, you're creating this environment that feels so welcoming. People talk, you know, like, you walk into the gym can you see folks like chatting with you, or chatting with each other, you'll get like, I've gotten a few Instagram requests right like people want to build a community there. And so maybe you don't have like the financial pieces that are gonna make it quote unquote better, however you want them to be but you're like loving us unconditionally yeah like supporting us in creating community with you.
José: Yes, yeah yeah. [both laughing]
Dani: It’s kind of like parenting.
José: laughing] Nice.
Dani: Mind blown?
José: Mind blown. [both laughing]
Dani: Also, like, who's gonna be writing in the suggestion box like, “I want expensive stuff!”
José: I I just don't know the criticism or the the suggestion box, I don't know what someone will write, “This gyms sucks!” LIke what, who wrote this? [laughing]
Dani: [laughing] Also, like, that’s not a suggestion. That's funny yeah. So for for you that feedback piece is so important to like have some sort of gentleness, [José: yes] I think going back to the encouragement piece, you're all about high fives after a workout. What do you say, you say, “High-five your partner!” That's what you always say and like I tried to tell you like “great coaching”, right?
José: I really appreciate it because it's hard it's harder like you throw, you’re throwing and I feel like it's an event every class and I want everyone to have a good time and I have like hit their goals. So uh, maybe you telling me that like “Ohh yeah like thank you, and thank you so much”. Because like I tried, it's not that like I go in there like, “Alright guys do whatever you guys want!” Like no, I give it my all too, to like help you guys reach your guys's goal for do your best in that class. So it's not just, it's not easy and I think this is the first time I like can say, like no, it's not easy being a coach or it's not easy running a class and I feel like maybe yeah, that's how I feel.
Dani: Yeah, I mean, there's so much that it goes into. Just keeping the gym, like honestly tidy. There's so much stuff in the gym that if it's not picked up, it's like everywhere at the end of the class, there's like so much gear out.
José: Gear. Yeah, Dust. There's always something broken or something that needs to be fixed. And I feel I do a great job of doing that so you guys won't notice it or I try to do that.
Dani: Yeah, no, you do a great job. You make it very comfortable. I think that you make it very accessible for folks. I love that, you know, one day your workout partner would be like, I'm thinking of someone that's like fairly young at the gym. I think, I think she's in 5th grade or something. And then somebody else who's like in their older adulthood, right, doing a different version of a workout. So I love that you make it accessible in so many ways and it's just been so welcoming and really does. What's your motto? [said together] It's not a gym, it's a community!
José:: It really does feel like that. So, I I'm just glad to be there. Thank you. Thank you for giving us a chance. And you coming in It's it's so nice to meet you.
Dani: Yeah. I'm glad to have met you too. And I think all of the things that you're doing at the gym to me right from my perspective of navigating this world as a woman feel like breaking down that like historically masculine like toxic masculine energy that's at the gyms. And so I thought this would be totally fun podcast to just talk with you and you working in and like owning a business in a historically like toxic masculine business, but breaking down some of those, I guess I'll call them like values or like [José: like stereotypes] or that's the word. I was like, yeah, exactly. Breaking down those stereotypes and then how that mix with you being a father, it just seems so connected by that piece of masculinity. So thank you for being here.
José: Oh, thank you.
[interview is over]
Dani: So before we say goodbye, I want to bring you to a wonderful gym right down the street from us. We've talked a lot about Highland Park Training today. Go check them out, talk to José, maybe even try out a class and see what you think. Also, if you are looking to add some wholesome fatherhood content to your social media feed, please check out The Dad Vibes on Instagram. It's the.Dad.Vibes. This account is run by a father who uses different quotes or tips and even episode clips from his very own podcast to talk about parenting without shaming your child. Topics like staying present with your own emotions while parenting, and there's even some stuff about reevaluating expectations placed on children. So that's all for us today. Thank you for joining us and thank you again to José for being the first guest on our podcast. It's been really great. So, we'll see you next time when we're Out of Session.
Dani Marrufo is Latinx, lesbian woman who is passionate about supporting Latinx, BIPOC, and LGBTQIA+ folks. She is constantly navigating the intersections of my queer identity & religion/spirituality and very excited about helping poly and queer-identified partners to feel more secure in their relationships, communicate effectively and compassionately, and bridge any relevant cultural differences to have increased curiosity and enjoyment in their partnership.
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